Sexual Predators - A Bi-Partisan Problem
the charges of liberal hypocrisy are a false equivalency. The accusations of sexual assault came after Clinton was reelected. Not to mention, at the time the accusers who came forward had credibility issues. It's only in the relatively recent past that people are starting to come to the conclusion that Juanita Broaddrick has made a credible accusation of sexual assault against Bill Clinton. And while Broaddrick is credible, it's not as though her accusation is provable at this late date.
Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey's stories remain as dubious as they were at the time. And the other alleged Clinton affairs can be described as consensual.
To say the evidence is overwhelming that Bill Clinton was or is a sexual predator would be false. It's not like the multitude of credible accusations agains Weinstein, Moore, Cosby, Louis CK, etc.
He’s a scumbag that is not worthy of your defense. It is this Clinton voters opinion that it’s better that you say nothing on his behalf.
Red_Barchetta said:
He’s a scumbag that is not worthy of your defense. It is this Clinton voters opinion that it’s better that you say nothing on his behalf.
that wasn't a defense.
And I never heard about JFK raping or attacking a woman. He might have cheated on his wife, with other adult woman but truthfully that is none of our business.
Not a defense or an attack. Just a philosophical question: what do we do with the art created by anti-Semites and predators?
I'll offer a comparison to the discussion of artists and others whose contributions we don't generally weigh in appreciating their art(s) - T.S. Eliot, Philip Larkin, Ezra Pound, Norman Mailer and others http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/opinion/global-agenda-magazine-good-art-bad-people.html
and current pop culture folks - https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-antisemites/celebrity-lists
With politicians, do we put harassers/assaulters who promote women's rights/issues in the same category as Roy Moore and Donald Trump - are Bubba and Franken less offensive, given their public positions and efforts?
should anyone still listen to David Bowie or Led Zeppelin?
In addition to her time with Bowie, Mattix was also statutory raped by Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page. In the book Hammer Of the Gods, former Zeppelin road manager Richard Cole claimed that the rocker tasked him with kidnapping the teen girl. He allegedly escorted her from a nightclub and thrust her into the back of Page’s limo with the warning of stay put or “I’ll have your head.” Page kept Mattix hidden for three years to avoid legal trouble.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/david-bowie-and-rock-n-rolls-statutory-rape-problem
Red_Barchetta said:
He’s a scumbag that is not worthy of your defense. It is this Clinton voters opinion that it’s better that you say nothing on his behalf.
mtierney said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/politics/gillibrand-bill-clinton-sexual-misconduct.html?ref=todayspaper
Bill Clinton is a scumbag but the problem with your post is that, if he was a Republican, you would be his most ardent supporter. You never met a conservative rapist, pedophile or abuser of women to whom you did not pledge your eternal loyalty, be they a priest, a pundit or a President.
Deplorable Hypocrisy!
mtierney said:
Red_Barchetta said:
He’s a scumbag that is not worthy of your defense. It is this Clinton voters opinion that it’s better that you say nothing on his behalf.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/politics/gillibrand-bill-clinton-sexual-misconduct.html?ref=todayspaper
is Gillibrand's contention that it's impossible for an adult woman to consent to an affair with the chief executive of the place where she works? That would be the only rationale for someone having to resign for an extramarital affair in the workplace.
ml1 said:
is Gillibrand's contention that it's impossible for an adult woman to consent to an affair with the chief executive of the place where she works? That would be the only rationale for someone having to resign for an extramarital affair in the workplace.
Another rationale is that it’s impossible for the chief executive to consent, without crossing lines of conduct and authority that chief executives should not cross.
Another view:
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/17/philippe-reines-kristen-gillibrand-hypocrite-246546
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:
is Gillibrand's contention that it's impossible for an adult woman to consent to an affair with the chief executive of the place where she works? That would be the only rationale for someone having to resign for an extramarital affair in the workplace.
Another rationale is that it’s impossible for the chief executive to consent, without crossing lines of conduct and authority that chief executives should not cross.
Perhaps I am a prude but I do not think the President of the United States should be having oral sex in the Oval Office even with his own wife. The problem in Bill Clinton's case was that his republican antagonists were sniveling hypocrits who decided that the sex was not the offense but the lying about it was. As I have said of the Clintons "With enemies like that, who needs friends?"
I'm broken-hearted about Al Franken. He did what he did and we're all learning what's right and wrong retroactively but Al's the best of the best. My values are his values. His wit is my wit. There was talk of a presidential run in 2020. So sad. He's my favorite Senator. For all involved. From Trump on down.
(The level of chutzpah for Trump - the Assaulter in Chief - or anyone that defends him to judge Moore or Franken or anyone is an outrage.
Mr. T, I think lots of people would agree that Franken is the saddest case to hear of...way sadder than CK or others. Not excusing anything. Just saddened by it.
this is something of a straw man. No one has said that this is a line that a POTUS should be crossing. The question is -- is this unacceptable behavior so far beyond the pale that the president should resign?
I think that's an awfully extreme response to behavior that in my view is private consensual sex between two adults. Even with hindsight, and even with the change in how we deal with such behavior now, I think it would have been absurd for Bill Clinton to be forced to resign for engaging in oral sex with Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office.
If a government employee said that the president forced himself on her, or promised her some sort of employment consideration for sex, then of course resignation would be called for. But not in an instance where the woman herself continues to insist the sex was consensual.
LOST said:
Perhaps I am a prude but I do not think the President of the United States should be having oral sex in the Oval Office even with his own wife.
Fellas, for the record, I believe it was an anteroom off the Oval.
Agree that consensual sex isn't reason to resign, though the power of POTUS over starry-eyed intern is exploitative.
LOST said:
The problem in Bill Clinton's case was that his republican antagonists were sniveling hypocrits who decided that the sex was not the offense but the lying about it was. As I have said of the Clintons "With enemies like that, who needs friends?"
Right. If Bill Clinton should have resigned so should have Dennie Hastert, Newt Gingrich and vast array of lesser conservatives who were also hypocrites. History has not been kind to Bill Clinton's prosecutors.
GL2 said:
Fellas, for the record, I believe it was an anteroom off the Oval.
Agree that consensual sex isn't reason to resign, though the power of POTUS over starry-eyed intern is exploitative.
By the standards of the time, though, ongoing infidelity probably was. Just look at that guy who went hiking on the Appalachian Trail.
To be fair. I have never liked the Clintons and, from a Progressive point of view I think he was the worst of the 3 Democrat Presidents who have served during my lifetime.
100% agree with you on this. Do I think it rises to the level of resignation? No. But I do think it was highly exploitative behavior on his part given his position of power. I would also hope that if the Lewinsky scandal happened today in 2017, that she would be treated far differently by society and the press.
GL2 said:
Fellas, for the record, I believe it was an anteroom off the Oval.
Agree that consensual sex isn't reason to resign, though the power of POTUS over starry-eyed intern is exploitative.
The_Soulful_Mr_T said:
I'm broken-hearted about Al Franken. He did what he did and we're all learning what's right and wrong retroactively but Al's the best of the best. My values are his values. His wit is my wit. There was talk of a presidential run in 2020. So sad. He's my favorite Senator. For all involved. From Trump on down.
(The level of chutzpah for Trump - the Assaulter in Chief - or anyone that defends him to judge Moore or Franken or anyone is an outrage.
agreed --- although given that Trump was elected, this would not seem to matter and if anything should sway some voters to consider him. grab him by the p-ssy or grab them by the t-tties would not make a difference to Trump.
I have never worked for a large corporation so I would defer to those who have.
If the CEO were found to have engaged in consensual oral sex with a 20 year old intern on the premises how would the Board react?
sigh.
She was not an intern at the time of the affair, and she was 22, not 20.
You keep on getting this wrong.
LOST said:
I have never worked for a large corporation so I would defer to those who have.
If the CEO were found to have engaged in consensual oral sex with a 20 year old intern on the premises how would the Board react?
Sorry, am getting old. My memory isn't what it used to be. I guess I should Google
Stock price is the only going down that's really going to matter.
LOST said:
I have never worked for a large corporation so I would defer to those who have.
If the CEO were found to have engaged in consensual oral sex with a 20 year old intern on the premises how would the Board react?
She was 22 and a government employee. It is unclear to me whether the affair started when she was an intern or after she became a paid employee. Why does that matter?
With the assistance of a family connection, Lewinsky got an unpaid summer White House internship in the office of White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta. Lewinsky moved to Washington, D.C. and took up the position in July 1995.[2][13] She moved to a paid position in the White House Office of Legislative Affairs in December 1995.[2]
Scandal
Main article: Lewinsky scandal
Lewinsky stated that between November 1995 and March 1997, she had nine sexual encounters in the Oval Office with then-President Bill Clinton. According to her testimony, these involved fellatio and other sexual acts, but not sexual intercourse.[17]
In April 1996, Lewinsky's superiors transferred her from the White House to the Pentagon because they felt she was spending too much time around Clinton.[2]
more refresh for those too young — or those in denial....
Lewinsky scandal
The Lewinsky scandal was an American political sex scandal that involved 49-year-old President Bill Clinton and 22-year-old White Houseintern Monica Lewinsky. The sexual relationship took place between 1995 and 1996 and came to light in 1998. Clinton ended a televised speech with the statement that he did not have sexual relations with Lewinsky. Further investigation led to charges of perjuryand to the impeachment of President Clinton in 1998 by the U.S. House of Representatives. He was subsequently acquitted on all impeachment charges of perjury and obstruction of justice in a 21-day Senate trial.[1] Clinton was held in civil contempt of court by Judge Susan Webber Wright for giving misleading testimony in the Paula Jones case regarding Lewinsky[2] and was also fined $90,000 by Wright.[3] His license to practice law was suspended in Arkansas for five years; shortly thereafter, he was disbarred from presenting cases in front of the United States Supreme Court.[4]
the Clinton and Lewinsky affair was sleazy and tawdry. But it wasn't assault and it wasn't harassment
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https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/14/roy-moore-allegations-bill-clinton-democrats-215825