Seth Boyden teacher accused of removing student's hijab during class
cramer said:
She immediately sided with the mother and Muhammad without waiting to hear more about the case - she judged the teacher guilty without waiting for the results of the investigation. .
What do you think Gagnier's reaction would have been if the parties had been reversed - a black teacher and a white student?
btw - The teacher was accused of being a racist.
ok, but you have an odd definition of racism.
He never said that she is a racist. His point is that she immediately jumped onto the teacher is a racist bandwagon without waiting for the facts to come in. And yes the teacher was accused of being a racist so when you are the the Exec Dir of a group that promotes fairness it must be a two way street.
Big failure by the CCR.
Ms Gagnier should resign because her actions in the hours after the event were not worthy of someone leading that important organization.
sbenois said:
He never said that she is a racist...
are you sure about that? He was responding to this:
Jaytee said:
Racism is not a one way street….
by saying this:
cramer said:
Jaytee said:
Racism is not a one way street….
Tell that to Nancy Gagnier, Executive Director of the CCR, who immediately called for the teacher's removal.
though to be honest , "the one way street" thing is confusing.
"A public speaker made a surprising allegation at the South Orange-Maplewood Board of Education meeting on April 18, saying that the mother of a student whose hijab was removed by a teacher has since apologized to the teacher."
"Talya Rothenberg, a friend of Herman, announced during public comments at the South Orange-Maplewood Board of Education meeting on April 18 that the mother of the student had come to Herman’s house, apologizing for the incident and saying that her daughter “makes things up."
This is Rothenberg's full public statement:
"Everyone in Maplewood has heard about the Seth Boyden teacher who was accused of ‘ripping off a child’s hijab.’ The rush to judgment was in biblical proportions. Immediately the Board of Education posted information about Islamophobia, as if this was Ms. Herman’s position. Ibtihaj Muhammad posted Ms. Herman’s name and picture. Some rabbis and others in the town wrote and posted about their outrage as if this was the truth.
Tragically, Ms. Herman was accused of Islamophobia instead of what it really was: a caring teacher who wanted everyone in her classroom regardless of race or religion to be learning. Including a child who had something that was covering her eyes.
Ms. Herman’s reputation, livelihood, and life as she knew it were forever dismantled and destroyed. She and her children’s lives were threatened, and she is literally afraid to walk into our towns of Maplewood and South Orange.
Well, today, I want everyone to listen very carefully. The Board of Ed may know this, but not our community.
On January 28, the mother who originally accused Ms. Herman of such a heinous act knocked on Ms. Herman’s door and she apologized. She apologized as she said the following, ‘This is just a total misunderstanding. My daughter loves you. She misses you. She talks about you all the time.’ To this, Ms. Herman replied, ‘And I love your daughter too.’
She later acknowledged in the conversation that her daughter makes things up. This is the truth and yet the injustice is undeniable. It’s time now to make Ms. Herman whole. Tamar Herman gave over 20 years of commitment to Seth Boyden school. I am demanding, many of us are demanding that you publicly apologize and clear Ms. Herman’s name. That you take care of her for the injustice that you helped perpetuate. Do right by Ms. Herman. No teacher should ever have to endure death threats, living in limbo and being excommunicated from her community for trying to help a child learn."
This is frustrating, because even if true it is second hand. She is still on leave. Apologize and drop the suit, or don't.
cramer said:
"A public speaker made a surprising allegation at the South Orange-Maplewood Board of Education meeting on April 18, saying that the mother of a student whose hijab was removed by a teacher has since apologized to the teacher."
"Talya Rothenberg, a friend of Herman, announced during public comments at the South Orange-Maplewood Board of Education meeting on April 18 that the mother of the student had come to Herman’s house, apologizing for the incident and saying that her daughter “makes things up."
This is Rothenberg's full public statement:
"Everyone in Maplewood has heard about the Seth Boyden teacher who was accused of ‘ripping off a child’s hijab.’ The rush to judgment was in biblical proportions. Immediately the Board of Education posted information about Islamophobia, as if this was Ms. Herman’s position. Ibtihaj Muhammad posted Ms. Herman’s name and picture. Some rabbis and others in the town wrote and posted about their outrage as if this was the truth.
Tragically, Ms. Herman was accused of Islamophobia instead of what it really was: a caring teacher who wanted everyone in her classroom regardless of race or religion to be learning. Including a child who had something that was covering her eyes.
Ms. Herman’s reputation, livelihood, and life as she knew it were forever dismantled and destroyed. She and her children’s lives were threatened, and she is literally afraid to walk into our towns of Maplewood and South Orange.
Well, today, I want everyone to listen very carefully. The Board of Ed may know this, but not our community.
On January 28, the mother who originally accused Ms. Herman of such a heinous act knocked on Ms. Herman’s door and she apologized. She apologized as she said the following, ‘This is just a total misunderstanding. My daughter loves you. She misses you. She talks about you all the time.’ To this, Ms. Herman replied, ‘And I love your daughter too.’
She later acknowledged in the conversation that her daughter makes things up. This is the truth and yet the injustice is undeniable. It’s time now to make Ms. Herman whole. Tamar Herman gave over 20 years of commitment to Seth Boyden school. I am demanding, many of us are demanding that you publicly apologize and clear Ms. Herman’s name. That you take care of her for the injustice that you helped perpetuate. Do right by Ms. Herman. No teacher should ever have to endure death threats, living in limbo and being excommunicated from her community for trying to help a child learn."
Thank you for sharing this @cramer. So much damage has been done to Ms. Herman. As a former teacher I can only imagine how devastating this has been for her.
What is the status? Is there a court case pending? NJDoE tenure hearing pending?
Formerlyjerseyjack said:
What is the status? Is there a court case pending? NJDoE tenure hearing pending?
Did the Board actually bring tenure charges against her over this obvious nonsense????
Has Phil Murphy tweeted that he is deeply disturbed about the false accusations?
Smedley said:
Has Phil Murphy tweeted that he is deeply disturbed about the false accusations?
Deeply disturbed by these accusations. Our diversity is our greatest strength and every child should feel safe and welcome in school, regardless of their race, religion, or culture. We fully support @SOMSDK12’s investigation into the matter.https://t.co/CetCQz6GMB
— Governor Phil Murphy (@GovMurphy) October 8, 2021
This entire incident has been nothing but hearsay from the beginning. So this latest bit of news changes nothing for the skeptical observer. Anyone who has come to a conclusion about it is likely just confirming their own preconceived biases for themselves.
ml1 said:
This entire incident has been nothing but hearsay from the beginning. So this latest bit of news changes nothing for the skeptical observer. Anyone who has come to a conclusion about it is likely just confirming their own preconceived biases for themselves.
Early on, after seeing the video of the girl and her mother, I was pretty sure that relying on the word of a 7 year old was gonna be a mistake.
ml1 said:
This entire incident has been nothing but hearsay from the beginning. So this latest bit of news changes nothing for the skeptical observer. Anyone who has come to a conclusion about it is likely just confirming their own preconceived biases for themselves.
I think you’re right. The only thing that would put this whole thing to rest would be for the mom herself to make a public statement. The latest revelation is, as you say, hearsay.
ml1 said:
This entire incident has been nothing but hearsay from the beginning. So this latest bit of news changes nothing for the skeptical observer. Anyone who has come to a conclusion about it is likely just confirming their own preconceived biases for themselves.
You're right. This entire incident was the result of posting hearsay by a Maplewood Olympic medalist in Instagram and Facebook.
It has been hearsay from the beginning. My point is that if Murphy is going to tweet about the initial hearsay, he should also tweet about this latest hearsay.
over on the FB, people are spiking the football. they are acting as if this latest revelation is the last word on the issue. and that they were right all along. but in reality nothing has changed. it's another claim being made by another person. and it wasn't made under oath or penalty of perjury.
If people are using this entire incident as evidence that nobody should have made this a public to-do until there was a full investigation, absolutely. But that isn't what a lot of people are doing. From the beginning many people have chosen to believe exactly what they want to believe.
Smedley said:
It has been hearsay from the beginning. My point is that if Murphy is going to tweet about the initial hearsay, he should also tweet about this latest hearsay.
he shouldn't have sent the first tweet. posting about every subsequent twist or turn in the story doesn't fix that. if there is eventually a definitive conclusion to the case, he could tweet about that. and if the story turns out to be completely made up, he should apologize.
"Reached for comment, Wyatt’s attorney Robert Tarver said that he could not comment and confirmed that the family’s lawsuit against Herman and SOMSD had indeed been filed: “Because we filed suit, we are not in a position to discuss the facts of the case.”
"This story was updated at 10 p.m. on April 19, 2022, with a comment from attorney Robert Tarver and confirmation from involved parties that a meeting did take place between Cassandra Wyatt and Tamar Herman on January 28, 2022."
the one thing I do find puzzling about the latest revelation is that from the start, even the teacher admitted she touched the student's hijab in some manner. So the story her friend is telling doesn't mean the girl's story was false, and completely made up. For anyone following this story, nothing has really changed. It's an incident that did in fact happen, but we have two different interpretations being shared -- one by the student, one by the teacher. Anyone who wasn't there who is acting as if they are sure they know what happened in that classroom is deceiving themself.
While still hearsay, it seems likely that the apology happened. That would be a super crazy story to make up. I hope this leads to a dropping of the suit so that this teacher can get some semblance of her career back.
Public apologies from Murphy and Muhammad seem unlikely given they never softened their statements when presented with alternative reports early on.
Sometimes, what sounds like an apology may not be. For example, speaking totally hypothetically, if the mother told the teacher that she was sorry that the incident happened and her daughter had been fond of Ms. Herman [edited correction], that is not an admission of a false allegation, nor a retraction or denial that wrongdoing occurred; and yes there is of course the hearsay issue.
Jasmo said:
Sometimes, what sounds like an apology may not be. For example, speaking totally hypothetically, if the mother told the teacher that she was sorry that the incident happened and her daughter had been fond of Ms. Murphy, that is not an admission of a false allegation, nor a retraction or denial that wrongdoing occurred; and yes there is of course the hearsay issue.
an exact reading of the quote above from Ms. Rothenberg does not indicate that the mother said her daughter made up the incident in question. But that's what a lot of people are taking from it.
Jasmo said:
Sometimes, what sounds like an apology may not be. For example, speaking totally hypothetically, if the mother told the teacher that she was sorry that the incident happened and her daughter had been fond of Ms. Murphy, that is not an admission of a false allegation, nor a retraction or denial that wrongdoing occurred; and yes there is of course the hearsay issue.
Ms. Rothenberg also said the mother said that sometimes her daughter makes things up. Yes, it is hearsay, but it adds a nuance to what you posted. My guess is that the parents' lawyer is going to get involved (he wasn't present at the meeting) and do some coaching. He stands to lose if in fact what was in Ms. Rothenberg's public statement is what transpired. There are also people in the community (or one person who no longer lives in the community but is heavily involved) who will probably contact Tamar Wyatt. My recollection is that early on Ms. Wyatt said that she wasn't going to do anything but some people in the community convinced her to go public.
Clearly there will never be full information on this -- there's no video, and I imagine any official statements or court transcripts or whatever aren't going to be made public.
That said, the original allegation, that a long-time teacher with a longstanding excellent reputation in the community would suddenly behave in a grossly aberrant and ignorant way, was very far-fetched from the get-go.
So while nobody knows what actually happened except the people who were actually in the classroom, IMO there's nothing wrong with believing that the story was BS from the start, based on the preposterousness of the claims. This report of an apology, which seems credible, supports that common-sense belief.
I would imagine that if the same story were told to groups of white and Black listeners, there might be signifucant differences as to common-sense guesses as to what really happened based on each group's upbringing and historical experiences.
Smedley said:
Clearly there will never be full information on this -- there's no video, and I imagine any official statements or court transcripts or whatever aren't going to be made public.
That said, the original allegation, that a long-time teacher with a longstanding excellent reputation in the community would suddenly behave in a grossly aberrant and ignorant way, was very far-fetched from the get-go.
So while nobody knows what actually happened except the people who were actually in the classroom, IMO there's nothing wrong with believing that the story was BS from the start, based on the preposterousness of the claims. This report of an apology, which seems credible, supports that common-sense belief.
Smedley said:
Clearly there will never be full information on this -- there's no video, and I imagine any official statements or court transcripts or whatever aren't going to be made public.
That said, the original allegation, that a long-time teacher with a longstanding excellent reputation in the community would suddenly behave in a grossly aberrant and ignorant way, was very far-fetched from the get-go.
So while nobody knows what actually happened except the people who were actually in the classroom, IMO there's nothing wrong with believing that the story was BS from the start, based on the preposterousness of the claims. This report of an apology, which seems credible, supports that common-sense belief.
there's nothing wrong with not believing an accusation until there's supporting evidence. but it would also be prudent not to assume the accuser is lying. Usually best to just admit we don't know until such time (if ever) evidence is made public.
Admittedly I'm showing my bias here but I found it not believable that the teacher yanked the hijbab from the student's head. Then there were those who said even if the teacher gently lifted the hijab she should be prosecuted for assault.
The Essex Co. Prosecutor's Office concluded that there was not enough evidence to support the parents' claim and that it was not going to press charges. Of course, the fact that there was not enough evidence to support a criminal charge does not mean that there wasn't enough evidence to support a civil case, which is what was done.
Regardless of the outcome, a dedicated teacher's life has been ruined. She'll never get if back.
cramer said:
Admittedly I'm showing my bias here but I found it not believable that the teacher yanked the hijbab from the student's head. Then there were those who said even if the teacher gently lifted the hijab she should be prosecuted for assault.
The Essex Co. Prosecutor's Office concluded that there was not enough evidence to support the parents' claim and that it was not going to press charges. Of course, the fact that there was not enough evidence to support a criminal charge does not mean that there wasn't enough evidence to support a civil case, which is what was done.
Regardless of the outcome, a dedicated teacher's life has been ruined. She'll never get if back.
to me, the stories told by both sides seemed kind of hinky. So all along my orientation has been that something happened in that classroom, and both sides are possibly (or maybe even probably) telling a truth as they experienced it.
It is possible that the incident might have been settled quietly, with less serious consequence if it had not been broadcast by someone with celebrity status.
It might have made it to MOL and we might have all shared our opinions, but it could have blown over.
Teaching high school students, I saw my share of misunderstandings involving students, teachers and parents. But this was not the usual way these things play out.
Yeah. That would be me. She should resign.