Seth Boyden teacher accused of removing student's hijab during class

I guess it's time for body cams.


drummerboy said:

I guess it's time for body cams.

 Cameras in classrooms is exactly what right wingers are asking for all over twitter right now.


ridski said:

drummerboy said:

I guess it's time for body cams.

 Cameras in classrooms is exactly what right wingers are asking for all over twitter right now.

 Yeah, they're trying to catch all of that CRT teaching and liberal indoctrination going on.


Tall_Mocha said:

yahooyahoo said:

The teacher's lawyer has now verified that the teacher did touch the student but "gently."
Major miscalculation by the lawyer not to admit there was contact between the student and teacher in the first statement.  I still believe it was an honest misunderstanding, but changing your story doesn't help.

From the Village Green Facebook page:

"An accusation that a teacher “forcibly” removed a second grader’s hijab has shaken the South Orange and Maplewood community in the last week, as the student’s family and friends and the teacher have offered differing accounts of the incident.

While the teacher does admit to touching the seven-year-old’s head covering in a new statement sent to Village Green, she contends that she thought the student was wearing a hoodie over her hijab, that the motion was done “gently,” and that the student “kept the hood on” when the teacher realized her mistake.

The attorney representing the student and her family, says that this account differs from a previous statement because the teacher "learned yesterday that we had confirmation [that an individual saw it happen].”"

 Flat out denying the touching only to admit it and downgrading it to “gentle” doesn’t sit right with me at all, as I already knew there was touching involved. Anxious to see how this plays out. 

Exactly.

From the teacher:  “With her mask on, too, her whole face was covered. I gently got her attention by brushing up the front of her hood. The moment I realized she was not wearing her usual hijab underneath, she kept the hood on. And the learning went on.”


Anyone who has ever been tasked with putting a positive spin on a story that is not entirely complimentary recognizes the tactic being used here. You don't lift something by 'brushing up the front of it"- you lift it up or you don't lift it up - period. The remainder of the sentence- "The moment I realized she was not wearing her usual hijab underneath, she kept the hood on. And the learning went on.”, is meant to draw attention away from the fact that in order to see that she wasn't wearing her hijab, the "brushing up" had to actually be a lifting up of the garment- enough to expose her hair. Which is of course the problem.  Additionally, the phrase, "...she kept the hood on", is an attempt to describe a passive event ending the interaction, initiated by no one in particular. This sidesteps the obvious event which is that the teacher lifted the garment, realized her mistake, and replaced the garment (or had it replaced).

I've read all of the invective about how horrible a human being Ibtihaj Muhammad is, but that is always the case when her name is mentioned on this board for reasons I can only speculate about. I also see a lot of concern about the terrible life the teacher is destined for due to the event.  What I haven't seen, and maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone writing about what this must have been like for a seven year old, nor have I seen anyone offer any information about why many Muslim women wear the hijab. I wonder how so many have missed the opportunity to delve into what is at once a religious imperative for some and for others a statement about agency and respect.  

And, as usual, cultural gaffes committed by white folks and familiar to many African Americans have gone unmentioned as well.  We, mostly African American women, have an ongoing battle with white people who routinely invade our personal space, standing too close, touching our person, and of course the cardinal sin- fondling our hair while marveling at styles that simply must be examined and explained on demand.

While I have my suspicions, I don't really know where this presumptuous freedom to examine and inspect comes from, but it is prevalent, and many African Americans will immediately assume that this belief that our bodies are open to inspection has something to do with the teacher's actions. In this case I'm sure the teacher who by all reports is perceptive and committed to her charges, was aware that the young girl wore a hijab on a daily basis. If this was in fact the case, then a conversation and request would seem to have been the best approach and not an attempt to touch the girl and remove an article of clothing that might be her hijab. 


flimbro,

have you seen the facebook live video of the mom and the child? The link is somewhere in this thread I think. The child was as happy as a clam - bouncing around and regaling her mom with the story - and at one point asking her mom to remind her what to say, for what's that worth. Anyway, contrary to Ibtihaj Muhammad's contention, she doesn't look very traumatized.

other than that - even with your semantic analysis - I think you're way off base on this one. the bottom line is that I'm going to take the word of a thirty year veteran teacher over that of a second grader, at least until the result of the investigation are revealed. Yes, the truth is probably in the middle, but I have to bet it's closer to the teacher's version.

And sorry, but Ibtihaj Muhammad was in the wrong. Simply, and disastrously so. She and the mom should never have come out publicly with this before talking to the school. It's the word of a second grader for god's sake. Especially with such inflammatory posts. The teacher has been reportedly getting death threats as a result of her social media posts, and was doxxed by her. Inexcusable - especially for what will probably end up being a trivial, yes trivial, event such as this.


ridski said:

drummerboy said:

I guess it's time for body cams.

 Cameras in classrooms is exactly what right wingers are asking for all over twitter right now.

 Hey, China has cameras installed in all Hong Kong universities, so why not follow their lead?   


drummerboy said:

flimbro,

have you seen the facebook live video of the mom and the child? The link is somewhere in this thread I think. The child was as happy as a clam - bouncing around and regaling her mom with the story - and at one point asking her mom to remind her what to say, for what's that worth. Anyway, contrary to Ibtihaj Muhammad's contention, she doesn't look very traumatized.

other than that - even with your semantic analysis - I think you're way off base on this one. the bottom line is that I'm going to take the word of a thirty year veteran teacher over that of a second grader, at least until the result of the investigation are revealed. Yes, the truth is probably in the middle, but I have to bet it's closer to the teacher's version.

And sorry, but Ibtihaj Muhammad was in the wrong. Simply, and disastrously so. She and the mom should never have come out publicly with this before talking to the school. It's the word of a second grader for god's sake. Especially with such inflammatory posts. The teacher has been reportedly getting death threats as a result of her social media posts, and was doxxed by her. Inexcusable - especially for what will probably end up being a trivial, yes trivial, event such as this.

I think you may be misreading what I wrote. I am taking the "30 year veteran' at her word. I'm reading what she's offering as fact (or at least fact as presented to her attorney and/or a journalist) and I'm deducing that with the crucial points of her version she's obfuscating certain aspects. "Brushing up" for lifting up, "...I realized she was not wearing her usual hijab, she kept the hood on", for- I lifted up the garment, saw that her hair was exposed and replaced - or allowed the garment to be replaced- and then resumed the class

I think it's pretty clear what occurred and as others have pointed out the fact that the story changed to now include gentle contact is obviously a signal of something. Stepping back from some of the hysteria generated about the issue, I don't think the teacher intended to inflict harm, but I do think she had an obvious lapse of judgement and made the wrong decision. Many interactions between well-meaning white folks and Black people start off with the best of intentions but spin off into disaster. Adding cultural or religious customs that may or may not be understood or fully respected only complicates the issue. If we lived in a society where that respect and understanding was a given, the issue would never have made it to social media. We don't- so it did.


flimbro said:

If we lived in a society where that respect and understanding was a given, the issue would never have made it to social media. We don't- so it did.

That’s an explanation, and because I don’t think any POV should go unchallenged, and because I can afford to indulge, I’ve been putting some mental effort into coming up with reasons for why that isn’t enough. Why the mother’s and Muhammad’s actions are still regrettable, if not deplorable. Why there’s still no excuse for the very real damage of “the terrible life the teacher is destined for” because of a lapse in judgment. Why interactions between well-meaning white folks and Black people should be disaster-proof.

Problem is (and I’ve been working on this for days now), the explanation keeps getting in the way.


DaveSchmidt said:

That’s an explanation, and because I don’t think any POV should go unchallenged, and because I can afford to indulge, I’ve been putting some mental effort into coming up with reasons for why that isn’t enough. Why the mother’s and Muhammad’s actions are still regrettable, if not deplorable. Why there’s still no excuse for the very real damage of “the terrible life the teacher is destined for” because of a lapse in judgment. Why interactions between well-meaning white folks and Black people should be disaster-proof.

Problem is (and I’ve been working on this for days now), the explanation keeps getting in the way.

 This has evolved into a no win situation.  None of the parties involved, including members the broader community, will walk away from this unscathed.  I frequently read discussions where the term "teachable moment" is used. This should be one of those moments for all of us. May we all learn from both the initial action whatever it proves to be, and the reaction in all segments of the community, becoming a better/stronger community as a result.


I have become skeptical enough to pause my thoughts considerably when someone accuses someone else of something, and among the first causes of action is to take to one’s social media to promote creation of a Gofundme, which I understand happened in this case. But that’s just me.  


tjohn said:

Could this situation have been handled as follows?

1.  2nd grader tells parent what happen at school.

2.  Parent contacts principal and asks for a meeting to discuss what happens.

3.  With a mediator, parent and teacher and principal discuss this issue and how to prevent this from happening again.

4.  If parent is still unhappy, then they can hire a lawyer.

However, now that this has been tried in the court of daily outrage, there are no good outcomes and the entire community suffers.

 Did the teacher, in fact, remove the headdress?  If so, what compelled her to do that?  What would compel anyone to remove somebody's headdress?  You can ask someone to remove their headdress.  Then they either comply or they provide an explanation, if the explanation is not satisfactory they send you to the principal's office.  Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

In the real world, knocking off someone's hat from their person, can be considered an assault or even a civil tort.  Why should this be any different?  

Did the teacher not know the student was Muslim?  If the student was wearing a full body covering, would she ask the child to remove the clothing or just tear if off?  This seems odd behavior for a person who should know the students in her class and who is part of a community that is offended every time a fly farts. 


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:

tjohn said:

Could this situation have been handled as follows?

1.  2nd grader tells parent what happen at school.

2.  Parent contacts principal and asks for a meeting to discuss what happens.

3.  With a mediator, parent and teacher and principal discuss this issue and how to prevent this from happening again.

4.  If parent is still unhappy, then they can hire a lawyer.

However, now that this has been tried in the court of daily outrage, there are no good outcomes and the entire community suffers.

 Did the teacher, in fact, remove the headdress?  If so, what compelled her to do that?  What would compel anyone to remove somebody's headdress?  You can ask someone to remove their headdress.  Then they either comply or they provide an explanation, if the explanation is not satisfactory they send you to the principal's office.  Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

In the real world, knocking off someone's hat from their person, can be considered an assault or even a civil tort.  Why should this be any different?  

Did the teacher not know the student was Muslim?  If the student was wearing a full body covering, would she ask the child to remove the clothing or just tear if off?  This seems odd behavior for a person who should know the students in her class and who is part of a community that is offended every time a fly farts. 

 Have you read this thread at all?


jeffl said:

 Have you read this thread at all?

 I read the post and I was gonna respond. Then I looked at the name of the poster....


jeffl said:

 Have you read this thread at all?

 I have read some of the more intelligent replies on here and it seems no one here knows what actually happened, so I am just asking the question in a hypothetical sense.  I mean, here is a hypothetical question that doesn't presume anything about this particular incident.  

Say, the second grader was a Jewish boy wearing a Yamaka, and the Yamaka was taken off forcefully, would there be anyone on here saying "could this have been handled another way?" Or say it was a young student wearing a Sikh Turban, would there be anyone here saying "wow, why the rush to the lawyer?  This should have been handled within the school and not on social media."  That is why I am asking the question if the teacher knew the student and her religion or beliefs.  

Some of you on here are treating this like the teacher (if she removed the headdress) was tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Those people are just (in my humble opinion) not grasping the meaning of the headdress in this case.


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:

 I have read some of the more intelligent replies on here and it seems no one here knows what actually happened, so I am just asking the question in a hypothetical sense.  I mean, here is a hypothetical question that doesn't presume anything about this particular incident.  

Say, the second grader was a Jewish boy wearing a Yamaka, and the Yamaka was taken off forcefully, would there be anyone on here saying "could this have been handled another way?" Or say it was a young student wearing a Sikh Turban, would there be anyone here saying "wow, why the rush to the lawyer?  This should have been handled within the school and not on social media."  That is why I am asking the question if the teacher knew the student and her religion or beliefs.  

Some of you on here are treating this like the teacher (if she removed the headdress) was tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Those people are just (in my humble opinion) not grasping the meaning of the headdress in this case.

 You are going on the assumption that the teacher forcibly removed the hajib….


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:

Some of you on here are treating this like the teacher (if she removed the headdress) was tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Those people are just (in my humble opinion) not grasping the meaning of the headdress in this case.

 If you read this thread - it seems like the teacher thought the student was wearing the hijab under her hoodie.  Brushed it back - when she saw she wasn't wearing one she moved is back down. 


Ummm…isn’t it actually a “yarmulke”?


Your hypothetical question implicitly casts the teacher's action as a forceful one. I get tired of this kind of "innocently" obtuse bulls hit. It isn't a surprise at all that your profile is anonymous.


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:  

Say, the second grader was a Jewish boy wearing a Yamaka, and the Yamaka was taken off forcefully, would there be anyone on here saying "could this have been handled another way?" 

 1. FYI: It's spelled yarmulke.

2. My high school boyfriend would wear a baseball cap as a head covering in place of a yarmulke. As hats were generally not allowed, teachers sometimes did tell him to take it off, and there were a few occasions where a teacher removed it, but let him put it back on after he explained. 

The current event seems to have some similarities and some differences. My guess is the teacher may have made multiple errors such as:

  1. did not recognize the student as her Muslim student -- she may have confused her Black students;
  2. misidentified a hijab as a hoodie; 
  3. pushed the hijab back off the students head (gently or not);
  4. And although, based on the student's description, the teacher did tell the student to put it back on after the student explained it was her hijab, the teacher may have then tried to say something nice about the student's hair -- which is a religious faux pas.  

Orthodox Jewish women often wear a sheitel (wig) to cover their hair (and may have shaved or very short hair underneath). I learned about religious hair-commenting faux pas when I was a teenager and complimented one of my Orthodox cousins on her new hairstyle... It was a new wig, and it was not supposed to be 'attracting' to others.


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:

jeffl said:

 Have you read this thread at all?

 I have read some of the more intelligent replies on here and it seems no one here knows what actually happened, so I am just asking the question in a hypothetical sense.  I mean, here is a hypothetical question that doesn't presume anything about this particular incident.  

Say, the second grader was a Jewish boy wearing a Yamaka, and the Yamaka was taken off forcefully, would there be anyone on here saying "could this have been handled another way?" Or say it was a young student wearing a Sikh Turban, would there be anyone here saying "wow, why the rush to the lawyer?  This should have been handled within the school and not on social media."  That is why I am asking the question if the teacher knew the student and her religion or beliefs.  

Some of you on here are treating this like the teacher (if she removed the headdress) was tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Those people are just (in my humble opinion) not grasping the meaning of the headdress in this case.

What if the school said that boys weren't allowed to wear baseball hats in school and a Jewish boy,  who usually wore a yarmulke, or a baseball cap  over a yarmulke and removed the baseball hat, one day just wore a baseball cap (which is allowed - as long as his head is covered)  and the teacher (who isn't Jewish) asked him to remove his baseball cap?   The student didn't remove his baseball cap and the teacher gently lifted the baseball cap off and realized the student wasn't wearing a yarmulke. Yes, the teacher probably should have not touched the baseball cap but was she disrespectful of the student's religion?   No doubt there would be some who would say the teacher is anti-semitic but I would hope that the more reasonable reasonable people would say it was an honest mistake, particularly in the case of a teacher who has an excellent reputation and is spoken of highly in the community. 


Heynj said:

Ummm…isn’t it actually a “yarmulke”?

Either way, it’s pronounced “bait.” And let’s all hope “headdress” was nothing more than an ill-chosen pick from a thesaurus.


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:

 I have read some of the more intelligent replies on here and it seems no one here knows what actually happened, so I am just asking the question in a hypothetical sense.  I mean, here is a hypothetical question that doesn't presume anything about this particular incident.  

Say, the second grader was a Jewish boy wearing a Yamaka, and the Yamaka was taken off forcefully, would there be anyone on here saying "could this have been handled another way?" Or say it was a young student wearing a Sikh Turban, would there be anyone here saying "wow, why the rush to the lawyer?  This should have been handled within the school and not on social media."  That is why I am asking the question if the teacher knew the student and her religion or beliefs.  

Some of you on here are treating this like the teacher (if she removed the headdress) was tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Those people are just (in my humble opinion) not grasping the meaning of the headdress in this case.

 Does anyone know when the Halloween parade starts?


It's started on this thread already.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

 Does anyone know when the Halloween parade starts?

 


ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:

 I have read some of the more intelligent replies on here and it seems no one here knows what actually happened, so I am just asking the question in a hypothetical sense.  I mean, here is a hypothetical question that doesn't presume anything about this particular incident.  

Say, the second grader was a Jewish boy wearing a Yamaka, and the Yamaka was taken off forcefully, would there be anyone on here saying "could this have been handled another way?" Or say it was a young student wearing a Sikh Turban, would there be anyone here saying "wow, why the rush to the lawyer?  This should have been handled within the school and not on social media."  That is why I am asking the question if the teacher knew the student and her religion or beliefs.  

Some of you on here are treating this like the teacher (if she removed the headdress) was tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Those people are just (in my humble opinion) not grasping the meaning of the headdress in this case.

 you aren't grasping that there is a strong indication the item in question was a HOODIE that the teacher did not realize was being used as a hijab...that is tantamount to removing a baseball cap.  Every indication is that this is a student that wore a traditional hijab every other day of school and the teacher had every reason to believe there was a regular hijab on under neath


jmitw said:

 you aren't grasping that there is a strong indication the item in question was a HOODIE that the teacher did not realize was being used as a hijab...

What makes you lean towards the explanation that the item was a hoodie that the teacher did not realize was being used as a hijab, rather than the explanation that the student was wearing a hijab that the teacher mistook for a hoodie?


sprout said:

What makes you lean towards the explanation that the item was a hoodie that the teacher did not realize was being used as a hijab, rather than the explanation that the student was wearing a hijab that the teacher mistook for a hoodie?

I would surmise that this is a decision based on emotion rather than fact. 

To me, the facts of the case are in question. Do we trust the word of the alleged victim, or the 30-year veteran teacher? Or is the truth somewhere between the two accounts? 

My personal opinion is meaningless right now, as is that of a lot of people who have become very involved in this debate. There are people who are much closer to the situation that might have a stronger reason to believe one way or the other. 

Flimbro, you made some excellent points in your last post that white folks (like me) need to really do our best to hear and understand. I'm trying to hear both sides of the argument and filter out the bluster from people who have just made up their mind one way or another. 


The Mom of the kid seems to dislike Jewish people.  


Redfruit said:

The Mom of the kid seems to dislike Jewish people.

When that exchange was first posted in this thread nine days ago, the mom seemed to me to be ascribing a motive. (“That’s why I believe she did it.”) But I concede I know so little about this case.


DaveSchmidt said:

Redfruit said:

The Mom of the kid seems to dislike Jewish people.

When that exchange was first posted in this thread nine days ago, the mom seemed to me to be ascribing a motive. (“That’s why I believe she did it.”) But I concede I know so little about this case.

 Yes - a motive, an explanation and of course obvious guilt in purposely and recklessly touching her child’s head. In the mother’s world, the teacher is an obvious enemy because first and foremost she’s Jewishhhhhhhhh.   


Redfruit said:

The Mom of the kid seems to dislike Jewish people.  

So, out of the menu of approach options around this event, it looks like you are pulling for #1-3?

  1. Pitchforks
  2. Social media wars
  3. Lawsuits
  4. Restorative practices

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