Repeal the Second Amendment, says former Justice Stevens.

What can I say? He's absolutely right.

And the liberal talking point should not be to say that it's not possible to do right now, as every pundit I've seen so far declare. The point is talk about how effed up our current interpretation of the amendment is, and how harmful it is. The point is to push the discourse away from what the NRA and the ammosexuals want the discourse to be.

See https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/john-paul-stevens-repeal-second-amendment.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion&action=click&contentCollection=opinion®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront

If you're going to demand the impossible why not go all the way and demand world peace?

supporting repeal is a way of pushing the discussion in the direction away from the NRA's preference. They've been controlling the discussion for decades. Time for that to end.

I think I stated that in the OP.

elvis said:

If you're going to demand the impossible why not go all the way and demand world peace?

this is a path that will end badly. It’ll just make the gun supporters sink in further. And even I, a staunch anti-gun person don’t believe in changing the constitution like that. 

We are much better off working on a plan for stricter gun laws. I’d consider that progress. And we’re at least getting some traction on this. Pushing to repeal the 2nd ammendment will halt any progress being made.

conandrob240 said:

this is a path that will end badly. It’ll just make the gun supporters sink in further. And even I, a staunch anti-gun person don’t believe in changing the constitution like that. 

Why not change, or eliminate, a constitutional provision that no longer applies to modern society? It has nothing to do with being anti or pro. It's about reality and relevance.

Because it’ll never work. Not now anyway. And all you do is back yourself into a corner. There are times when a more moderate stance has the potential for much greater impact. This is one of them.

conandrob240 said:

Because it’ll never work. Not now anyway. And all you do is back yourself into a corner. There are times when a more moderate stance has the potential for much greater impact. This is one of them.

Whether it works, or not, it's RIGHT. Why be afraid of the discussion?  It doesn't back me into a corner, since I'm still able to discuss and support interim measures. It just defines the ultimate goal. Kinda like accepting Obama care as a step toward single-payer.

Repealing the Second Amendment is the most sane idea I've heard in a very long time.   It's not impossible.  Really difficult, yes.  But this seems like an amazing goal to shoot for (ha).

The NRA is an abomination.   They rely on the rest of us being cowed by their power.  Taking things in a radical direction such as repealing the Second Amendment should lead to a real showdown.   Liberals need to grow a pair.  Several pairs.

I agree, we should not be afraid to argue for repeal of the second amendment, for all the reasons stated above, to move the debate in a direction away from the ground rules that have been set by the NRA for far too long. Because it's past time. Because it's the right thing to do. 

Since the 1950's any idea that smacked of socialism or communism was dismissed without discussion, and in fact labelling an idea "socialist" was a great way to get it dismissed without examination. To the great detriment of our understanding of issues related to publicly shared benefits, such as health care, education, child care, social safety nets, transportation...

The Democratic party has spent the past 40 years arguing for moderate, centrist pragmatism. That has been a significant contributing factor to the mess we are in today. How many progressive candidates have been dismissed as "unelectable" before they even ran?

You can't win if you give up before the fight has even begun.

You folks may as well be making cash donations to the NRA. Statements like this are fundraising gold for them. Nothing turns out the Republican base like someone threatening to repeal the 2nd Amendment. 

I'm not afraid, just conscious of what’s possible right now. I’d rather make smaller steps that have a much higher probability of success (and may save lives RIGHT NOW)than push for an option that has a 1% chance and may be a LONG way away.

Sensible,common sense gun laws right now. 

Vote out the NRA supporters. Debunk the NRA, cut their funding, bring them to their knees in next 1-2 years.

Then, long-term go after the repeal.

To repeal the 2nd Amendment will require the equivalent of the Temperance Movement which culminated in the 18th Amendment after many, many years.  

I posted this last February.  https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/nra-counter-resistance-video?page=next&limit=0#discussion-replies-3339429

Watch the video.  The NRA is an insane organization.  You can't counter insanity with reason and baby steps.

So?  Children and young adults are being slaughtered in our public schools, ffs.

tjohn said:

To repeal the 2nd Amendment will require the equivalent of the Temperance Movement which culminated in the 18th Amendment after many, many years.  

They didn't achieve that goal without even talking about it. Repeal needs to be part of the discussion, if only to help a moderate argument appear moderate, and to keep the eyes on the prize so we don't move one step in the right direction and mistake that for the end of the journey.

tjohn said:

To repeal the 2nd Amendment will require the equivalent of the Temperance Movement which culminated in the 18th Amendment after many, many years.  

That's the kind of reasoning that is holding any movement forward back.  Good - let them turn out.  We turn out too -- stronger.  The main worry is they will have the guns, and they would bring them.  The NRA and its supporters are crazy.  Like Nazi-crazy.

GoSlugs said:

You folks may as well be making cash donations to the NRA. Statements like this are fundraising gold for them. Nothing turns out the Republican base like someone threatening to repeal the 2nd Amendment. 

the reason for pushing for repeal is to make the NRA folks concerned. And perhaps in response they will not oppose common sense regulation. 

If the  every state had the regulations on firearms that we have in NJ, a lot of lives would be saved. 

The bold (mine) made me laugh out loud.

I guess you didn't watch the video. I'm not really sure liberals realize how completely effing insane the NRA is.  They are not "folks".  They are lunatics.

ml1 said:

the reason for pushing for repeal is to make the NRA folks concerned. And perhaps in response they will not oppose common sense regulation. 

Let's just change the 2nd amendment to: 

The right of the people to own a musket, shall not be infringed.

good point. we should go cower in a corner.

GoSlugs said:

You folks may as well be making cash donations to the NRA. Statements like this are fundraising gold for them. Nothing turns out the Republican base like someone threatening to repeal the 2nd Amendment. 

I have to say, I almost can't believe my eyes when i see this.  The worst has already happened.  Trump was elected. If the country goes full-on Nazi if the left rises against guns, then we deserve what we get.

GoSlugs said:

Nothing turns out the Republican base like someone threatening to repeal the 2nd Amendment. 

and, by the way, how do you think the NRA got to where they are today? Decades ago they staked out a position that was way out of the mainstream (based on their totally unreasonable and legally untenable  interpretation of the 2nd amendment), just like repeal would be considered today. They stuck to it - hell, they got more crazy as the years went on - and they have prevailed mightily - and they did it by shifting the conversation so far over to their side that these days a lot of libs and Dem leaders think that "universal background checks" represents a significant win. And a proposal  like arming every damn teacher in the country is considered a reasonable response to mass shootings.

In another thread there was a discussion about the efficacy and morality of torture. Pre 9/11, such a discussion would have appeared ludicrous - no one of any responsibility would dare take the pro-torture side. The question had already been decided. Torture = Bad stuff, don't do it.

Yet here we are in 2018, debating it , just as a key figure in the CIA's post 9/11 torture regime is about to head up the CIA. 

The pro-torture side did it by taking an extreme position and sticking with it, pulling the whole conversation towards their side. They didn't have to convince everyone that torture was ok - but making it a debateable issue opened the door for them to win.

The right does this ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and it's getting tiresome to see the left lose at it, always.

The gun control side has been beaten down to within an inch of it's life. It's time we woke up.

drummerboy said:

and, by the way, how do you think the NRA got to where they are today? Decades ago they staked out a position that was way out of the mainstream (based on their totally unreasonable and legally untenable  interpretation of the 2nd amendment), just like repeal would be considered today. They stuck to it - hell, they got more crazy as the years went on - and they have prevailed mightily - and they did it by shifting the conversation so far over to their side that these days a lot of libs and Dem leaders think that "universal background checks" represents a significant win. And a proposal  like arming every damn teacher in the country is considered a reasonable response to mass shootings.

In another thread there was a discussion about the efficacy and morality of torture. Pre 9/11, such a discussion would have appeared ludicrous - no one of any responsibility would dare take the pro-torture side. The question had already been decided. Torture = Bad stuff, don't do it.

Yet here we are in 2018, debating it , just as a key figure in the CIA's post 9/11 torture regime is about to head up the CIA. 

The pro-torture side did it by taking an extreme position and sticking with it, pulling the whole conversation towards their side. They didn't have to convince everyone that torture was ok - but making it a debateable issue opened the door for them to win.

The right does this ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and it's getting tiresome to see the left lose at it, always.

The gun control side has been beaten down to within an inch of it's life. It's time we woke up.

This is called the Overton Window. The right knows how to manipulate it.

The Overton Window, and How Trump won the Nomination With It

How an Obscure Conservative Theory Became the Trump Era’s Go-to Nerd Phrase

I deliberately avoiding using the term Overton Window. I think it's a bit overused, partly by people who don't really understand it - not that I'm an expert, but there's more to the theory of the window then simply defining the boundaries of acceptable discourse - which is really all I'm talking about. Mine is a more simplistic view than the Overton window.

Be that as it may - gun control discourse has been deliberately forced into one direction by the NRA, and it needs to be pushed back against if any progress is to be made. We need more political leaders to start talking about how nutty and dishonest the NRA is with their various claims, and start proposing our own radical proposals.

Oh, and a better media would be nice too, but that ain't gonna happen. The gun-control side gets knocked for a loop when CNN pretends that Dana Loesch is simply "presenting another opinion". It takes a lot of work to push back against crap like that.

grrrr

I don't understand what's wrong with lefty-leaning billionaire.  There's always a large handful of right-wing billionaires ready to fund all kinds of attempts to mold public opinion. The lefties seem to think that they're better off just funding charitable organizations and to leave public discourse to the vagaries of the "market".

They're idiots, and consequentially we, and good policy, get their ***** whipped.

jamie said:

Let's just change the 2nd amendment to: 

The right of the people to own a musket, shall not be infringed.

Yep.  I have always wondered how the people who insist on the original intent interpretation of The Constitution can somehow ignore the reality of technical change.  Certainly the Founding Fathers never envisioned modern weaponry.

In any case, reasonable gun control is constitutional.

You know, its great to see people finally standing up for principle even if it means electoral suicide.  I take it this means an end to the criticism of those progressives who couldn't hold their nose and vote for HRC.

ml1 said:

the reason for pushing for repeal is to make the NRA folks concerned. And perhaps in response they will not oppose common sense regulation. 

even crazy people will recognized when it's time to cut their losses.  

Nope.  Not gonna happen.

I read the full column this morning.  I suspect even Justice Stevens is more tossing it out there as a goal than thinking it's a realistic prospect.  Everyone who says, "Repeal can't happen, politically" (I will admit to being in that category) should be open to other means to the same goal.  Among those means would be electing lawmakers willing to consider reasonable restrictions, without responding to every proposal as if contrary to the intent of the Second Amendment.  Another means would be to not have the Executive Branch in the hands of anyone who would appoint members of the Supreme Court who disagree with Justice Stevens' dissent in Heller.  The former can have more immediate effect; failure to have taken care of the latter will have more far-reaching consequences.

[Edited to add] @jamie, the "quote" function didn't put a ""quote box" around the text I quoted, I had to edit this post and do it.  

[Edited again to add]  Okay, now the "quote box" didn't stick.  Hence the extra wording now.

I was being sarcastic, if that was not obvious.