Police Shootings

Today on NJ.com:

  • On Aug. 6, 2020, Amir Johnson, 30, of Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania was fatally shot by New Jersey officers, according to body camera footage released Sept. 25, 2020, by the state attorney general’s office. Ventnor and Atlantic City officers responded to a 911 call about a disturbed man, and Barre (sic) appears to charge one of the officers while holding a broken glass bottle, according to the video.

Apparently police officers are being taught, that if you must use your fire arm, then shoot to kill?

Is that really the correct policy, when dealing with disturbed people, often off their meds (or on something they shouldn't have taken)?  

If someone pulls out a gun, I am not going to quibble.  But, in the case of a baseball bat, knife or broken bottle, the police officer has some time to react - and decide what should be the appropriate action to get control of the situation.

I understand that we might not hear about those cases, which are resolved without use of lethal force.  Yet, it appears to this writer, that there are way too many cases, that end up with a person in need of help being shot dead.


tomcat said:

Apparently police officers are being taught, that if you must use your fire arm, then shoot to kill?

Most certainly.  A gun is designed to kill.  If it needs o be used, it needs to be used that way.  The question is did the gun need to be used?  Were their other options?  Specifically, when dealing with the mentally ill, etc., why are the police the only responders?  It's not a law enforcement issue.  Why do we not have mental health crisis response teams to respond?


tomcat said:

...

If someone pulls out a gun, I am not going to quibble.  But, in the case of a baseball bat, knife or broken bottle, the police officer has some time to react - and decide what should be the appropriate action to get control of the situation.

...

About 1.5 seconds, if the attacker is within 21 feet -- and that's been a standard part of police training for the past 35+ years. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

https://www.police1.com/police-products/firearms/articles/what-officers-really-need-to-know-about-the-21-foot-kill-zone-fhQUJ72iE2aOJpkr/

I think the 2nd link above makes it clear that the best approach is to increase distance, when possible, in these situations -- but when it's not, and when a person is charging at the officer, the outcome sadly is often pre-determined. 


mental  illness is absolutely a police issue, but the problem is that there is not good training to deal with it.  It is not practical to have mental health response teams readily available all over.  There would need to be a crisis team employed full time at every police station.  The emergency response needs to be quick in cases like this.  They can't wait a half hour for a crisis team to come in from across the county.

I think the video was about 11 minutes of them trying to stop him.  Not enough time for a crisis team to arrive in most areas.  There are 'crisis' teams from the hospitals, but they only come out when a person is calm to allegedly assess if they are suicidal or not...and most of the time, their assessment is garbage.  My stalker came after me one night, they determined she was not a danger to others that night....she harmed herself the next day.  Another time they just knocked on the guys door and went away when he didn't answer.  When PD eventually got in some time later, there were weapons stashed all over and threats scrawled on the walls, the guy wasn't bathing or eating, dogs were peeing all over the house.  I know of 3 cases where they essentially kidnapped stable people who didn't need help.  I don't want to get into details of innocent people, but one involved an abusive male making a false report that she sent a threatening email....the screeners refused to read the email and took the abusers word for it.  The other 2 involved incompetent alleged medical professionals, 1 a nurse, the other in the mental health field....who came to bizarre conclusions (one person said they were tired) and exaggerated to claim the person was suicidal....in that case the person was getting out patient care and her personal providers determined there was no indication she was a threat, but the hospital took the work of the acquaintance who happened to work in the mental health field..

the point is alleged mental health crisis teams are a danger to others....they can't be depended on to help.

The guy wanted suicide by cop, but they just kept yelling at him to drop the bottle so they could help him.  He didn't want help.  Yelling at him was counter productive.

and guns can do more than kill, a bullet to the leg can stop a person, but a leg is a small target and hard to hit.

there needs to me more intense police training to deal with mental illness.  may be make it a condition of promotion above patrol officer.  anyone who is going to be a sergeant or shift leader should have an intense mental health training course, at  least week long full time with yearly refresher courses.


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/10/how-police-officers-are-or-aren-t-trained-in-mental-health/280485/

Crisis Intervention Training (CIT)—with a 40-hour curriculum—is the most
comprehensive police officer mental health training program in the
country. According to Laura Usher, CIT program manager at NAMI headquarters in
Arlington, Virginia, there are crisis intervention training programs in
45 states as well as the District of Columbia. (States without programs
are Delaware, West Virginia, Alabama, Arkansas, and Rhode Island.)


they tried to tase him, but the taser didn't work


Non-lethal technology should get more attention.  Rubber bullets or similar non-lethal projectiles that can reliably take a person down without killing them.  


bub said:

Non-lethal technology should get more attention.  Rubber bullets or similar non-lethal projectiles that can reliably take a person down without killing them.  

 I thought rubber bullets are for shooting at journalists, photographers and peaceful demonstrators. 


ml1 said:

bub said:

Non-lethal technology should get more attention.  Rubber bullets or similar non-lethal projectiles that can reliably take a person down without killing them.  

 I thought rubber bullets are for shooting at journalists, photographers and peaceful demonstrators. 

 Plus there seem to be eye injuries associated with them - included loss of sight...


Isn't there a projectile net? 




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