Panel votes to suspend Ms. Lawson-Muhammad

DaveSchmidt said:
She was ticketed with going 12 m.p.h. over the 25 limit.

Thank you - I should have checked. 

I will say that I am now sure not to exceed 25 mph when I  drive past the spot. 

cramer said:
sprout - You're throwing it all back on the police officer. I disagree with you. 

No -- I am saying that process improvement in law enforcement, specifically in the area of de-escalation, is very important.

And I'm saying that this video provides a good case study for this process improvement.

As I recall, the incident occurred in proximity to a children’s playground and little league park.

Driving safely in that circumstance is not too much to ask, among other things.

I think court appearance is required when you don't have your insurance id, registration or license.

yahooyahoo said:

This thread was started to discuss specifically the incident with SLM.  You can start another thread to discuss the larger issue of police force process improvement.

Watch it, sprout. Discussion Police checkpoint ahead.

sprout said:

cramer said:
sprout - You're throwing it all back on the police officer. I disagree with you. 

No -- I am saying that process improvement in law enforcement, specifically in the area of de-escalation, is very important.
And I'm saying that this video provides a good case study for this process improvement.

Sprout - do you place ANY blame for this incident on Lawson-Muhammad?

sprout said:
No -- I am saying that process improvement in law enforcement, specifically in the area of de-escalation, is very important.
And I'm saying that this video provides a good case study for this process improvement.

 I think we’ve got it.  Kindly de-escalate your call for process improvement.   

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

cramer said:
sprout - You're throwing it all back on the police officer. I disagree with you. 

No -- I am saying that process improvement in law enforcement, specifically in the area of de-escalation, is very important.
And I'm saying that this video provides a good case study for this process improvement.

Sprout - do you place ANY blame for this incident on Lawson-Muhammad?

I agree that SLM behaved badly.

Do you agree that law enforcement can help reduce the severity of people behaving badly, and improve outcomes of police/community interactions?

Sprout I'm guessing you also believe the key takeaway from the infamous Caren Turner traffic stop were Turner's words: “I encourage the Tenafly Police Department to review best practices with respect to tone and de-escalation, so that incidents like this do not recur.”

She was perfectly lovely, it was the cops who were at fault. 

sprout said:

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

cramer said:
sprout - You're throwing it all back on the police officer. I disagree with you. 

No -- I am saying that process improvement in law enforcement, specifically in the area of de-escalation, is very important.
And I'm saying that this video provides a good case study for this process improvement.

Sprout - do you place ANY blame for this incident on Lawson-Muhammad?

I agree that SLM behaved badly.
Do you agree that law enforcement can help reduce the severity of people behaving badly, and improve outcomes of police/community interactions?

Yes, I agree with that and I think the officer in this case did an excellent job.

@Smedley

Thank you -- that really helps show how I'm missing the point. I will now shift my focus to highlighting and publicly chastising/shaming those individuals holding minor-to-moderate positions of power, who try to use their power to challenge the power of police. 

I see how that focus would help many more people than a focus on improving law enforcement de-escalation practices more generally.

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

cramer said:
sprout - You're throwing it all back on the police officer. I disagree with you. 

No -- I am saying that process improvement in law enforcement, specifically in the area of de-escalation, is very important.
And I'm saying that this video provides a good case study for this process improvement.

Sprout - do you place ANY blame for this incident on Lawson-Muhammad?

I agree that SLM behaved badly.
Do you agree that law enforcement can help reduce the severity of people behaving badly, and improve outcomes of police/community interactions?

Yes, I agree with that and I think the officer in this case did an excellent job.

You would rate his performance as "excellent", but can you clarify on what criteria? For example:

• Do you think his de-escalation technique was "excellent"?
• What de-escalation technique did you observe him using?
• What was the interaction de-escalation you observed that supports the "excellent" rating?

Honestly, I just thought she had resigned.  I guess I need to pay more attention to school politics.  Thanks to everyone for the detailed discussion.

I have no words for the weird delusions exhibited here.

I would have forgiven the officer if he’d told her off.  She deserves that.

People speed past that park all the time.  I swear, if the SOPD just stuck an officer there full time writing tickets we could reduce the property tax rate in this town.  

kmt said:
I would have forgiven the officer if he’d told her off.  She deserves that.

You can only imagine, then, how relieved I am that you have a job in tech and not law enforcement.

kmt said:
I would have forgiven the officer if he’d told her off.  She deserves that.

(1) anger + anger => more anger in world

(2) anger + de_escalation => less anger in world

You prefer path (1); I prefer path (2)

I think the difference of opinion is around what is the role of the PO.

In the context of a traffic stop like S L-M's, I do not think it is the PO's job to "de-escalate" the situation. His/her job is to enforce the law and write ticket(s), impound, arrest, let go and say have a nice day, or whatever else the situation warrants. 

The PO should not needlessly escalate the situation, but he/she bears no responsibility to de-escalate either.  

So in the case of the S L-M stop, the officer acted by the book -- measured in approach, neutral in tone, courteous throughout. Just business. A+ work. 

DaveSchmidt said:

kmt said:
I would have forgiven the officer if he’d told her off.  She deserves that.

You can only imagine, then, how relieved I am that you have a job in tech and not law enforcement.

Kind of creepy Dave.  But I’ll go back to deciding your bank account’s balance.  ;P

sprout said:

kmt said:
I would have forgiven the officer if he’d told her off.  She deserves that.

(1) anger + anger => more anger in world
(2) anger + de_escalation => less anger in world
You prefer path (1); I prefer path (2)

 This specific traffic stop is an example of #2.  De-escalation from the officer and anger from SLM.  By your own formula, this results in less anger in the world.  Well done SOPD.

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

mikescott said:
Sprout -- Clearly you did not watch the video before your made up your mind.   Officer remained calm and in control the whole time.  

True, before watching the video I believed that police force process improvements are very important. And due to this, I watched the video through a process improvement lens.
In terms of importance, I think SLM is a minor character in our larger world. So, the outcome of this traffic stop drama will have local impacts, but little beyond that. 
So, my focus is on the larger issue of police force process improvement. I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me that focusing on SLM is more important.

This thread was started to discuss specifically the incident with SLM.  You can start another thread to discuss the larger issue of police force process improvement.

Sure. But no one will read it. Humans are drawn to drama - no matter how inconsequential to their lives. Process improvement, while helpful, is terribly boring. Perhaps here it can get some needed attention.

sprout said:
(1) anger + anger => more anger in world
(2) anger + de_escalation => less anger in world
You prefer path (1); I prefer path (2)

 This has nothing to do with this particular traffic stop does it? Everyone can agree that de-escalation works. What’s your point about this particular situation?

kmt said:

Kind of creepy Dave.  But I’ll go back to deciding your bank account’s balance.  ;P

Just a memory like a tack, kmt. Go easy on the account; I have a kid in college now.

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

kmt said:
I would have forgiven the officer if he’d told her off.  She deserves that.

(1) anger + anger => more anger in world
(2) anger + de_escalation => less anger in world
You prefer path (1); I prefer path (2)

 This specific traffic stop is an example of #2.  De-escalation from the officer and anger from SLM.  By your own formula, this results in less anger in the world.  Well done SOPD.

No. The officer did not escalate the interaction. Maybe in "not escalating" the officer performed well.

But "not escalating" is not the same as "de-escalating".

ETA: here is that path:

(3) anger + not escalating => same anger in the world

sprout said:

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

mikescott said:
Sprout -- Clearly you did not watch the video before your made up your mind.   Officer remained calm and in control the whole time.  

True, before watching the video I believed that police force process improvements are very important. And due to this, I watched the video through a process improvement lens.
In terms of importance, I think SLM is a minor character in our larger world. So, the outcome of this traffic stop drama will have local impacts, but little beyond that. 
So, my focus is on the larger issue of police force process improvement. I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me that focusing on SLM is more important.

This thread was started to discuss specifically the incident with SLM.  You can start another thread to discuss the larger issue of police force process improvement.

Click to Read More

yahooyahoo said:

sprout said:

mikescott said:
Sprout -- Clearly you did not watch the video before your made up your mind.   Officer remained calm and in control the whole time.  

True, before watching the video I believed that police force process improvements are very important. And due to this, I watched the video through a process improvement lens.
In terms of importance, I think SLM is a minor character in our larger world. So, the outcome of this traffic stop drama will have local impacts, but little beyond that. 
So, my focus is on the larger issue of police force process improvement. I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me that focusing on SLM is more important.

This thread was started to discuss specifically the incident with SLM.  You can start another thread to discuss the larger issue of police force process improvement.

Sure. But no one will read it. Humans are drawn to drama - no matter how inconsequential to their lives. Process improvement, while helpful, is terribly boring. Perhaps here it can get some needed attention.

 I think you’re demonstrating that tendency to needless drama actually.

I think Sprout needs lessons on de-escalation training.  to every response she gets she escalates the discussion back to how the police officer needed to do more to de-escalate.  Guessing she is a friend of SML and is not interested in really understanding exactly what took place.  

kmt said:

sprout said:

yahooyahoo said:

This thread was started to discuss specifically the incident with SLM.  You can start another thread to discuss the larger issue of police force process improvement.

Sure. But no one will read it. Humans are drawn to drama - no matter how inconsequential to their lives. Process improvement, while helpful, is terribly boring. Perhaps here it can get some needed attention.

 I think you’re demonstrating that tendency to needless drama actually.

Perhaps, but I'm driven by seeing it as "moving towards improvements in human interactions" rather than "needless".

Has it had that effect?

What would "deescalating" in this case have looked like?