asbestos tile and mastic is not the same thing. It is visible, finite and not very expensive to remove in the order of magnitude of things ( amx a few K). The oil tank thing is a crapshoot. so many of us have/will have this issue. ugh!
I chimed in when perhaps I should not have done so, but wanted people to understand how terrible and expensive this situation can be.
orzabelle said:
Lisat, was that a decommissioned tank?
No, it was a working tank, which was why we were able to have insurance. However, we now have no insurance for tanks because the tank was removed, and I live in fear of finding out that we have a second tank (not likely but hey neither was what happened), and not having insurance for it.
I think it absolutely stinks that people have legally decommissioned tanks and are unable to get insurance on them. On the other hand, it isn't fair for the insurance industry to take the brunt either. A super fund is needed for this IMHO.
I will say that the insurance adjuster handling our case also handles cases in 2 or 3 other states, and she said N.J. is different in allowing so much money to change hands. The insurance company is now suing our oil company, and settled with a previous owner's insurance company citing the tank as having leaked for 30+ years.
yahooyahoo said:
There was and it ran out of money way ahead of schedule.
http://www.nj.gov/dep/srp/finance/ustfund/
Steve said:All of us. There should be a taxpayer fund.
You're assuming that the contamination wasn't already there when the tank was decommissioned. Also, the State is not holding the homeowner responsible, it is simply that the new buyer won't take the chance that there is contamination on the site. Who should be responsible?
It gets a few bucks every year - but many (most?) around these parts are too rich to qualify anyhow.
Applicants for the UST cannot earn more than $250,000 a year or have a primary residence exceeding $500,000
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2014/06/nj_will_pay_to_remove_old_underground_oil_tanks_but_youll_have_to_wait.html
The fund is closed and effectively dead. There is a huge waiting list.
RobB said:
yahooyahoo said:It gets a few bucks every year - but many (most?) around these parts are too rich to qualify anyhow.
There was and it ran out of money way ahead of schedule.
http://www.nj.gov/dep/srp/finance/ustfund/
Steve said:All of us. There should be a taxpayer fund.
You're assuming that the contamination wasn't already there when the tank was decommissioned. Also, the State is not holding the homeowner responsible, it is simply that the new buyer won't take the chance that there is contamination on the site. Who should be responsible?
Applicants for the UST cannot earn more than $250,000 a year or have a primary residence exceeding $500,000
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2014/06/nj_will_pay_to_remove_old_underground_oil_tanks_but_youll_have_to_wait.html
Hmm....you all have me wondering now....we bought our house some 30+ years ago...it had gas heat and still does...however the house was built in 1924 and they were generally all oil heated back then...I have no idea if the tank still exists or was remediated in any way...do I want to open this Pandora's box or not???
If and when you sell your house, the buyer's lawyer will certainly require documentation that there is no underground oil tank. You will need to determine if there is one first.
ladykoala said:
Hmm....you all have me wondering now....we bought our house some 30+ years ago...it had gas heat and still does...however the house was built in 1924 and they were generally all oil heated back then...I have no idea if the tank still exists or was remediated in any way...do I want to open this Pandora's box or not???
Do people in other states have to deal with these oil tank problems, or is it just
one of the benefits of living in the Garden State and paying obscene property taxes at the same time
?
If your tank was properly decommissioned with permits it is highly unlikely that there is a significant leak underneath that would cost $100K. Your tank had to be solid with no holes in order to be left in place and filled with sand. In some cases even properly decommissioned tanks were found to have some contamination, but in every case I have heard about , that contamination cost less than $10,000 to remediate.
I have been a realtor for 20 years and remember when oil tanks became an issue. In every case when I had buyers or sellers with an inground oil tank my strong advice was to remove it. Same with asbestos. If it is gone it will never be an issue. If it is left in place who knows what the future will bring. I do not mean to be critical but to me decommissioning an oil tank and leaving it in place to save $200 to $400 seems penny wise and pound foolish.
There is no legal requirement that forces a seller to remove a properly decommissioned oil tank, but in the current environment it would be very very rare to find a buyer willing to accept it.
My advice if you are considering a sale and have a properly decommissioned oil tank in ground - remove it. If you wait until your home is on the market it could cost you buyers. If you wait and there is a problem you could lose a sale.
ladykoala - In 1924 houses were heated with coal. Oil burners were not in use yet. Very rarely you'll find a house that stayed with the coal and then eventually went to gas but that is very, very rare. It's funny that in 1924 almost all Maplewood homes had a gas connection for the stove but gas heat was unknown.
ladykoala said:
Hmm....you all have me wondering now....we bought our house some 30+ years ago...it had gas heat and still does...however the house was built in 1924 and they were generally all oil heated back then...I have no idea if the tank still exists or was remediated in any way...do I want to open this Pandora's box or not???
Some homes went from coal to gas. I suppose you should find out if you have a buried tank so that you don't have do deal with the problem when you eventually want to sell your house.
Thanks for this. I'm feeling somewhat less nervous now.
Regarding penny wise, pound foolish: I wish I had known then what I know now!
sarahzm said:
If your tank was properly decommissioned with permits it is highly unlikely that there is a significant leak underneath that would cost $100K. Your tank had to be solid with no holes in order to be left in place and filled with sand. In some cases even properly decommissioned tanks were found to have some contamination, but in every case I have heard about , that contamination cost less than $10,000 to remediate.
I have been a realtor for 20 years and remember when oil tanks became an issue. In every case when I had buyers or sellers with an inground oil tank my strong advice was to remove it. Same with asbestos. If it is gone it will never be an issue. If it is left in place who knows what the future will bring. I do not mean to be critical but to me decommissioning an oil tank and leaving it in place to save $200 to $400 seems penny wise and pound foolish.
There is no legal requirement that forces a seller to remove a properly decommissioned oil tank, but in the current environment it would be very very rare to find a buyer willing to accept it.
My advice if you are considering a sale and have a properly decommissioned oil tank in ground - remove it. If you wait until your home is on the market it could cost you buyers. If you wait and there is a problem you could lose a sale.
We decided to pull our decommissioned tank last year and are glad we did. These threads used to give me the willies!
If you are nervous about the possibility that you may have a surprise inground oil tank there are several things you can do.
The first is free. Pay a visit to town hall and put in a request to see all permits. If an oil tank was decommissioned with permits it will be there. If an oil furnace was removed and replaced the permit for the new furnace should be there (if the records go back far enough).
If you suspect you might have an in ground oil tank, you can pay a company to do a sweep. It costs around $200. A guy comes to your house with a metal detector and does a sweep of your home.
One word of caution. If they find a tank, they find a tank, but sometimes they find "something" and they cant say what it is. They may want $200 to $500 to dig and figure out what it is. Don't let them do it. Have them show you where the "find" is, get your own shovel and dig. In 15 minutes you will be able to dig down enough to know what it is.
Can you share the details of your experience? I'm in the same situation, as are many others on this thread.
hauscat said:
We decided to pull our decommissioned tank last year and are glad we did. These threads used to give me the willies!
I used to read these threads and have nightmares. I was convinced there was a huge environmental mess under our home that would bankrupt us. Then before selling our house I went to town hall and found all the paperwork that a tank had been removed 25+ years ago and all the permits and documents were there.
I pulled one at our last house that had been sitting half full for 30 years. I did it as soon as I could because it felt like the smart thing to do. Waiting only increases your chance of a leak.
We knew there was a UST but we bought the house because at the time it was not a big deal if the tank was properly decommissioned. We had to book the company about 6 weeks ahead because they were so busy. The first contractor I met with warned me he would probably damage our stone wall (the tank was under our patio in a tight space) so we went with another contractor who came highly recommended and said he could bring smaller equipment. It was a larger tank - 1000 gal - that had been filled with "foam" which hardens to a substance like concrete over time so the tank weighed about 5000 pounds when they pulled it. I was thrilled to see that the tank was intact with no leak.
Just finished ours. We pulled a "properly decommissioned tank", and found contamination. Remediation ensued, and bottom line was a $15K total. We were lucky.
Sweetsnuggles said:
Does anyone know when a NFA (no further action) letter is needed? The sellers of our house pulled the decommissioned UST before we closed on the place. I pulled the permits and found two that apply. One permit is for when the tank was decommissioned. The other permit is for when the tank was pulled in 2012. The town did not have a copy of a NFA letter on file. Is the NFA letter only required if/when remediation takes place?
You could call Bob Mittermeyer in the Maplewood Building department and ask.
It is my understanding that an NFA letter is only needed if an oil tank is decommissioned and contamination is found. The NFA letter is issued after a clean up is complete and further tests are negative. If it is a clean pull there is no need for an NFA
sarahzm said:
Sweetsnuggles said:You could call Bob Mittermeyer in the Maplewood Building department and ask.
Does anyone know when a NFA (no further action) letter is needed? The sellers of our house pulled the decommissioned UST before we closed on the place. I pulled the permits and found two that apply. One permit is for when the tank was decommissioned. The other permit is for when the tank was pulled in 2012. The town did not have a copy of a NFA letter on file. Is the NFA letter only required if/when remediation takes place?
It is my understanding that an NFA letter is only needed if an oil tank is decommissioned and contamination is found. The NFA letter is issued after a clean up is complete and further tests are negative. If it is a clean pull there is no need for an NFA
Thanks very much Sarah. We've been having major structural work done in our house (ouch) and Bob is coming back soon to do the final inspection, so I will ask him about it.
There won't be an NFA if there was no remediation. The town will simply close the permit
A NFA letter is issued by the state. It is issued to certify that a tank was pulled appropriately and necessary remediation was done correctly. Hence there can be no further action against the property. The company who pulled our working tank with a minor leak provided dozens of pages of documentation to get the letter. It took the state several months to send the letter. This was 2004.
Several questions: What company do we like for pulling a decommissioned tank? What's considered a reasonable charge for pulling the tank? And I assume it's the town inspector who comes to inspect for contamination? And it's he who would provide an all-clear letter?
tjohn said:
ladykoala said:Some homes went from coal to gas. I suppose you should find out if you have a buried tank so that you don't have do deal with the problem when you eventually want to sell your house.
Hmm....you all have me wondering now....we bought our house some 30+ years ago...it had gas heat and still does...however the house was built in 1924 and they were generally all oil heated back then...I have no idea if the tank still exists or was remediated in any way...do I want to open this Pandora's box or not???
Our 1930s house in West Orange must have done just that (from coal straight to gas). We had a sweep done before selling two years ago, and they found no trace of a tank. If there HAD been a tank in the yard previously, you can usually find a capped off pipe in the basement wall where the oil made the transit from the tank to the oil burner.
These threads give me the willies, too, particularly what happened to LisaT and Metaphysician and MelechRic. It's horrifying how bad it can get. But don't panic on that account... those are truly the exceptions, I believe.
unicorn33 said:
Several questions: What company do we like for pulling a decommissioned tank? What's considered a reasonable charge for pulling the tank? And I assume it's the town inspector who comes to inspect for contamination? And it's he who would provide an all-clear letter?
We used Mike Waters but there are others that MOLers seemed to like. The costs obviously vary but pulling a 650gl tank without extenuating factors (like being located in hard to reach place in the yard, etc.) should run about $1,500 to $2,000. (1,000gl tank should only run a couple of hundred more.) Also, remember that the tank pullers sell the tanks to scrap metal yards (for few hundred bucks) so ask whether they can pass along the savings to you. They typically would say "it's factored into the estimate" but it can't hurt to ask.
The town inspector typically comes to the site once the tank is out of the ground (since you can't tell if there's been contamination until that happens). If there's no contamination, he doesn't issue an "all-clear letter"--he just closes out the permit. But if there is contamination, he notifies the state, who then creates a file on your property. Once remediation is complete and the necessary paperwork (a geologist report, lab results, etc.) is submitted to Trenton and approved, the state then issues the NFA (no further action) letter.
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