Nazi Salute at MMS?

Seriously?

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Student-Nazi-Salute-Becomes-Teachable-Moment-for-Maplewood-Middle-School-Principal-414010263.html

what is that your concerned/surprised about? The kids saluting or the principal's reaction?

Is there any info on the circumstances? And before you say "it isn't acceptable under any circumstances" I ask because I remember a student, who happened to be Jewish, giving a teacher a Nazi salute when I was as SOMS a gazillion years ago. Basically the teacher kept pushing the kid's buttons, and forced him to stand in front of the class to shame him for not being able to pay attention, and then decided he wanted the kid to show him some respect and barked out something along the lines of "give me a salute or else you'll stand here for the whole period." Kid gives a Nazi salute, teacher's face turns bright red and he's about to explode, kid replies "well, you didn't say what kind of salute." Kid got sent to the principal's office for that one, but the teacher was an ***, purposely humiliating the kid in front of the class like that.

Also, there may have been a time or two that I was a bit bossy in asking my husband to do something where he would sarcastically respond with "Jawohl, mein fuhrer!" Not exactly a Nazi salute, verbal or otherwise, but still enough to get in trouble if you take it too seriously.

it sounds like it was kids playing around without knowing exactly what they were doing.

you know, like kids.

Intent is everything but probably difficult to suss out with kids. Kids do stupid things because that's what kids do.

I'm pretty sure 99.9% of MMS kids know this is a bad idea. For the ones who did apparently don't, spending a few hours after school watching concentration camp liberation footage should get them straightened out.

Harsh for tweens? Yeah sure. But if they wanna ape butchers they should see what it is they are aping. No reading assignments. Let them see it.

should they point out that the popularity of such anti-semitic symbolism and activity seems to have increased since Trump? and that they need to watch out for it?

Well, when I clicked on the NBC headline about a Nazi salute in a middle school, I was a little surprised the story was about MMS. Guess I’m just like those people on TV who after any awful incident always say, “I can’t believe that happened HERE!”

The Village Green story is a bit more comprehensive, and includes the principal’s letter:

http://villagegreennj.com/schools-kids/maplewood-middle-school-responds-nazi-gesture-incident/

Classifying the incident an HIB is a mixed bag. I suppose this allows the school to respond more positively with a focus on anti-bias training, as opposed to providing a simple punitive response. But at the same time designating the incident Harassment/Intimidation/Bullying raises questions about what circumstances exactly lead to the “salute” being designated an incident of HIB, which seems a little more serious than “kids being kids.” But the HIB designation allows the district to not answer those questions or provide any details or context precisely because the incident is classified as HIB. So we’ll never know.

I think my age is showing. Having grown up around a lot of survivors of the Holocaust, I worry about what it will mean to future generations when we lose their witness. Just one more thing, among so very many, to worry about these days.

About two weeks ago I was asked by someone who doesn't live in SOMA about the anti-Semitic incidents taking place in SOMA. I was surprised that he even knew about the incidents, but I guess that they have been receiving a lot of publicity.

Three in a year may raise the profile a tad.

What was it that the children did?

TomR

Read the article...

ctrzaska,

I watched the NBC video link, and read the Village Green link. What did the children do? Nazi gestures is a bit too vague for me.

TomR

Given the district and the admin isn't saying (as usual)-- preferring to hide under the covers some HIB umbrella (nothing to see here!)-- no one knows. Though I can think of only one gesture and but one (maybe two) verbal comments that would qualify; it's not hard to guess. That said, are there any Nazi gestures that can be considered ok?

ctrzaska,

OK. I didn't miss anything significant. I am disappointed that NBC and Village Green are "reporting" rumors and the reports of rumors.

Be that as it may; isn't the expression of unpopular political beliefs protected under our First Amendment? Even for children?

TomR

I think it's hazy, but HIB rules tend to also get murky and leave much room for erring on the side of offense than not, particularly if the BOE is in CYA mode. Not sure how I feel about this case given the district has clammed up, but apparently the story involves a Jewish student having a copy of a Philip Roth novel in a class (likely The Plot Against America, by my guess), another Jewish student asking about it, and a third (presumably not Jewish) reacting with a Nazi salute and a phrase. Ironic thing is, if the offending student in question knew of the book, her reaction wasn't off base.

Tom_R said:

Be that as it may; isn't the expression of unpopular political beliefs protected under our First Amendment? Even for children?

Not indentically; "in loco parentis" rings a bell (so to speak). The Supreme Court has variously affirmed and restricted free-speech protections for schoolchildren, notably in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District and Bethel School Board v. Fraser:

10 Supreme Court Cases Every Teen Should Know

Tom_R said:

ctrzaska,

OK. I didn't miss anything significant. I am disappointed that NBC and Village Green are "reporting" rumors and the reports of rumors.

Be that as it may; isn't the expression of unpopular political beliefs protected under our First Amendment? Even for children?

TomR

The government cant suppress speech (HA! they're already doing it). I'm quite sure that a school can punish students for expressing that they want to kill Jews.

shoshannah said:

Tom_R said:

ctrzaska,

OK. I didn't miss anything significant. I am disappointed that NBC and Village Green are "reporting" rumors and the reports of rumors.

Be that as it may; isn't the expression of unpopular political beliefs protected under our First Amendment? Even for children?

TomR

The government cant suppress speech (HA! they're already doing it). I'm quite sure that a school can punish students for expressing that they want to kill Jews.

Schools have broader powers to regulate behavior than are to be expected in the "real" world. Toss your locker, make you change your clothes, even bar you from the classroom if you talk too much during class about flowers and lollipops let alone something like what's being discussed here.

If they can make the case that the behavior is disruptive (hardly a bridge too far) or intimidating and threatening to other students (again, don't need F. Lee Bailey to make a case on this one) they can punish the kids pretty broadly.

A Nazi Salute is also anti-American, considering that 400 thousand US military were killed in WWII. Hope that was conveyed.

Please let Richard Spencer know.

Robert_Casotto said:

A Nazi Salute is also anti-American, considering that 400 thousand US military were killed in WWII. Hope that was conveyed.

and wtf is richard spencer?

Alt-right White Supremicist who led a group of followers in Nazi salute for Trump in a meeting at a restaurant during the Republican Convention. Mentor of Stephen Miller while at Duke.

Robert_Casotto said:

and wtf is richard spencer?

ctrzaska said:

I think it's hazy, but HIB rules tend to also get murky and leave much room for erring on the side of offense than not, particularly if the BOE is in CYA mode. Not sure how I feel about this case given the district has clammed up, but apparently the story involves a Jewish student having a copy of a Philip Roth novel in a class (likely The Plot Against America, by my guess), another Jewish student asking about it, and a third (presumably not Jewish) reacting with a Nazi salute and a phrase. Ironic thing is, if the offending student in question knew of the book, her reaction wasn't off base.

I hate it when the BOE is in CYA over HIB.

But I love speaking in code. Still not sure what happened here though.

People are free to say what they want. However, this doesn't give them immunity from any consequences.

shoshannah said:

Tom_R said:

ctrzaska,

OK. I didn't miss anything significant. I am disappointed that NBC and Village Green are "reporting" rumors and the reports of rumors.

Be that as it may; isn't the expression of unpopular political beliefs protected under our First Amendment? Even for children?

TomR

The government cant suppress speech (HA! they're already doing it). I'm quite sure that a school can punish students for expressing that they want to kill Jews.

Is it possible that the offending student doesn't fully appreciate the horror of what the Nazis did? A lot of young people can be a bit short on empathy.

ctrzaska said:

I think it's hazy, but HIB rules tend to also get murky and leave much room for erring on the side of offense than not, particularly if the BOE is in CYA mode. Not sure how I feel about this case given the district has clammed up, but apparently the story involves a Jewish student having a copy of a Philip Roth novel in a class (likely The Plot Against America, by my guess), another Jewish student asking about it, and a third (presumably not Jewish) reacting with a Nazi salute and a phrase. Ironic thing is, if the offending student in question knew of the book, her reaction wasn't off base.

If.... This kid was making some sort of literary reference on a Philip Roth book by doing the salute and slogan, the behavior is still terribly ill advised given the sensitivity of the issue but is a hell of a lot less sinister and troubling.

That 3 middle school kids are sitting around commenting on literature at their age is.... Actually sort of impressive.

Again, if.

That's sort of my take on it. No idea if all the facts are there, or any for that matter, only offering up as some detail that's been floating around. If true, I'd be curious to know whether the third kid had a clue or just saw the cover and reacted given the symbol on it (if it was the book).

Regardless, just the idea of even ONE kid reading Roth in middle school warms my heart.

But, any details are once again being covered up by the BOE because HIB in a typical CYA move (that's for you, ice). As if the curcumatances of the event without naming names has anything, at all, whatsoever, in any way shape or form, to do with confidentiality.

shoshannah said:...
The government cant suppress speech (HA! they're already doing it). I'm quite sure that a school can punish students for expressing that they want to kill Jews.

Jackson_Fusion said:...
If they can make the case that the behavior is disruptive (hardly a bridge too far) or intimidating and threatening to other students (again, don't need F. Lee Bailey to make a case on this one) they can punish the kids pretty broadly.

If somebody has information that some student(s) expressed the intent to kill Jews; or that they were in some manner disruptive, intimidating and/or threatening to other students, I'd like to read the information you have.

At this point, insofar as I can ascertain, nobody seems to have a firm grasp on what transpired.

Any help in better understanding this matter would be greatly appreciated.

TomR