Lackluster alert from the town for tornado warning

drummerboy said:
We've had two warnings in two days. When was the last time that happened?

Seems to me things are different now.
Despite what WXNut says.
But yeah, lets wait until someplace gets waylaid by a tornado before we have an effective warning system.
Makes sense to me!

 We have NOT had two warnings in two days.  And at the risk of blowing this thread off topic, there is nothing to indicate this weather pattern, while unusual, has anything to do with the climate emergency. 

That said, it is a reminder that we occasionally do get severe weather, including severe thunderstorms, and people should be more aware and more prepared.


HatsOff said:


WxNut2.0 said:
 You’re complaining about an ear-splitting, terrifying cell phone alert but would prefer a siren? 


Maplewood doesn’t get violent tornadoes and that’s not changing. I promise you that. This isn’t about dumbing it down for civilians, it’s about conveying the reality of the risk — of which there is very little in maplewood. 
I said "forget the damn sirens" and I meant it. I honestly don't care what methodology as used, as long as it is consistent (i.e. people are not left out) appropriate to the level of risk, and informative about what we need to do to stay safe.
If there is very little risk, we should not have received a warning. If nobody had received the warning, then this whole thread wouldn't even have started. It was started because some got the warning but many didn't, which very understandably upset those who didn't. They are worried that if there had been a true risk, they wouldn't know about it. I think that is fair.
I keep repeating myself here - I am not finding the words that will help you understand what I am thinking. 
I agree that conveying the reality of risk is important. The NWS (or whoever sent that horrible alert) needs to do a better job at that. Can you at least agree with that?
In any case until they figure out how to provide useful information to people without terrifying them when it isn't necessary, I am opting out. 


 I understand exactly what you are thinking, and I sympathize with what you are feeling.  I also disagree with you.  Just because your feelings are real and you are explaining yourself lucidly does not mean you are right.

It is a good idea to observe tornado warnings because even in a small minor tornado that we might someday have here, and of which we get one or two of these warnings every few years, flying debris, not exploding houses, is the main concern.  For people indoors, the most likely danger is someone's patio chair coming through a window.  So stay away from windows when there is a warning.  The basement is a good place for that.

In most cases people who did not get warnings on their phones did not get them because either you have them turned off or your phone thought you were somewhere else outside the warning area.  Modern phones are complicated and often these settings are buried deep within sub-menus that folks don't tend to explore.  

You have every right to turn your alarm settings off.  But please do not hold me responsible, as one of the weather explainers here, if someday you needed to hear that alarm and didn't.


max_weisenfeld said:

In most cases people who did not get warnings on their phones did not get them because either you have them turned off or your phone thought you were somewhere else outside the warning area.  Modern phones are complicated and often these settings are buried deep within sub-menus that folks don't tend to explore.  

You have every right to turn your alarm settings off.  But please do not hold me responsible, as one of the weather explainers here, if someday you needed to hear that alarm and didn't.

Max, I would never hold you or anybody else here responsible for my actions. But I would find a few unkind words for NWS because their alerts are not helpful. As I said - if they work on these so that they are demonstrably appropriate to the level of risk and are informative about how to stay safe, I'll turn it back on. But I am not going to let myself get frightened by a pointless and pretty much useless (in the sense of conveying usable information) alert in future. But turning alerts back on would only help me. It wouldn't help those without this technology.

While sirens may not be the answer - I hear everything all of you weather guys are saying about that, your points are fair - how on earth do you get the word out to people who don't have cell phones or who have switched them off for whatever reason etc.? I have never met Joan Crystal to my knowledge but she seems like a nice lady. And I think of people like my parents who don't have any sort of cell phone let alone a smart phone. They don't live here but not so far away. I don't want these people to be left out.

Is that wrong?


max_weisenfeld said:  
You have every right to turn your alarm settings off.  But please do not hold me responsible, as one of the weather explainers here, if someday you needed to hear that alarm and didn't.

 Who do we hold responsible if my 80 year old neighbor doesn't get the warning because he has a land line? 

I am struggling to imagine the terrible scenario the naysayers are imagining with sirens going off and people.....doing what?  Sheltering in place?  

Civilization as we know it could grind to a halt.


We may not get many tornadoes in Maplewood.  I can remember hearing about just one (along Springfield Avenue) in all the years I have lived here.  We are prone to severe hurricanes, the occasional microburst, and some flash flooding.  Potential for toppling trees is probably the greatest danger likely we face.  Whether a siren system is needed for these events which generally have more lead time for preparation than a tornado would present, is open to question.  We should still consider the most effective ways of notifying all residents when predictable emergencies are imminent beyond the exclusive use of internet and cell phone based methods of notification.


WxNut2.0 said:


drummerboy said:



WxNut2.0 said:

drummerboy said:
We've had two warnings in two days. When was the last time that happened?

Seems to me things are different now.
Despite what WXNut says.
But yeah, lets wait until someplace gets waylaid by a tornado before we have an effective warning system.
Makes sense to me!
Let’s not do this again. 


Also, where was the warning today? We had one last night, not today. 
Click to Read More
drummerboy said:



WxNut2.0 said:

drummerboy said:
We've had two warnings in two days. When was the last time that happened?

Seems to me things are different now.
Despite what WXNut says.
But yeah, lets wait until someplace gets waylaid by a tornado before we have an effective warning system.
Makes sense to me!
Let’s not do this again. 


Also, where was the warning today? We had one last night, not today. 
Click to Read More
WxNut2.0 said:

drummerboy said:
We've had two warnings in two days. When was the last time that happened?

Seems to me things are different now.
Despite what WXNut says.
But yeah, lets wait until someplace gets waylaid by a tornado before we have an effective warning system.
Makes sense to me!
Let’s not do this again. 


Also, where was the warning today? We had one last night, not today. 
 as I said...
 as I said...
Click to Read More
drummerboy said:



WxNut2.0 said:

drummerboy said:
We've had two warnings in two days. When was the last time that happened?

Seems to me things are different now.
Despite what WXNut says.
But yeah, lets wait until someplace gets waylaid by a tornado before we have an effective warning system.
Makes sense to me!
Let’s not do this again. 


Also, where was the warning today? We had one last night, not today. 
Click to Read More
WxNut2.0 said:

drummerboy said:
We've had two warnings in two days. When was the last time that happened?

Seems to me things are different now.
Despite what WXNut says.
But yeah, lets wait until someplace gets waylaid by a tornado before we have an effective warning system.
Makes sense to me!
Let’s not do this again. 


Also, where was the warning today? We had one last night, not today. 
 as I said...
 Good to see you didn’t actually read the snippet of the article you posted. There were not two tornado warnings in maplewood. There weren’t even two watches, the watch yesterday didn’t include Essex county. All there was was an article trying to teach you the difference between a watch and a warning, but in the process somehow caused you to believe both had been issued two days in a row. 


Here’s a link to all the tornado warnings issued by the NWS NYC (the office responsible for maplewood) in the last week or so. There’s two, with the second being an update to the first as the storm moved:


https://kamala.cod.edu/offs/KOKX/wfus51.chunk.html



The Dunning Kruger is very strong with you.

 dude,

please don't piddle around with technicalities. My point, obviously, was that twice in two days our area had the word tornado thrown around as a possibility. (And I knew you were going to fixate on watch vs. warning. )(and please don't quibble about what constitutes "our area")

Tornado mentions for our area are rare enough. Two in two days seems...abnormal, to say the least.


Or maybe you're like sb and would just as soon wait until his neighbor's house gets blown down the street.



This thread seems to have become the go-to place for people's pent-up arguments since the Politics category has been tucked away! Including inane unhelpful posts from the usual suspect.

At any rate I hope we can agree on a few things:

  1. We get sudden dangerous weather in SOMA that can make reasonable preparations (i.e. get inside away from windows) necessary, however infrequently.
  2. Apparently the current system for warning people about an imminent danger misses a lot of folks.
  3. Nobody's house is blowing away.
  4. Relying on just one method for alerting people of imminent dangerous weather is not the best approach right now until we all have mobile phones with us 24/7.
  5. Dogs have no respect for wine. 

WxNut2.0 said:
I’m not trying to minimize your fear or marginalize any confusion you may feel. I think that pushing warnings to a phone is a great idea. But if a siren sounds in Alabama you know what it’s for. In maplewood it’s just going to confuse people, that’s the only point I’m trying to make. 

 I was 13 years old, and do not remember any sirens. It was blasting all over the tv and my parents were in charge. As to adding to confusion by having a siren, I disagree. Maplewoodians can be made aware through various forums as to what that means. If one type of alert is going out, like these phone alerts did, I believe a siren can be added for those, like me, that did not get anything. If the risk is low, and I trust your expertise, then people can decide for themselves to go back to Netflix or to get to the basement.


yahooyahoo said:


hazel said:
The siren still goes off to warn golfers to take cover when a thunder/lightening storm is in the vicinity. I was watching tv (HBO) alone and had my cell phone on and beside me. I got no warning. When the weather got crazy, I kept getting up and looking outside, remarking to myself on how wild it was outside. But I had no idea that there was a tornado warning. I lived in Alabama as a kid and was in an F4 tornado. Plenty of warning and my family took shelter in the basement.
That is the siren at the country club, not the town's siren.  

 Just wondering if the country club is the one who set it off back in the day when it went off to tell of a snow day (and that has certainly been the case in my 22 years of living here)? Or did the town "borrow" it to use for this notification?


I also think using a siren warning is a good idea.  IMHO, there is too much reliance on technology, which doesn't always work, and which some folks don't have.  Remember when the power went out in much of Maplewood during Superstorm Sandy and the library was crowded by residents seeking to recharge their cell phones?  If a tree falls on your house or car (as Joan pointed out, Maplewood's lovely old trees can also be destructive when severe weather hits) and injures or even kills a member of your household, I'm sure you'd feel differently about spreading notifications in different forms so as many people as possible are informed.  I also remember the microburst in the area of Midland Avenue and how destructive it was (though I think it's almost impossible to pinpoint where a microburst will occur).  As far as not understanding what the siren is about, that's a matter of education, which should be relatively straightforward.


The sirens should be used to alert people to the fact that they need to seek further emergency information.  I lived in Manhattan during 9/11 so I am quite aware that phone service is not a given in  the case of a disaster or emergency.  Tornados are a minor but real threat.  So are the countless chemical processing facilities to the East of us.  

If 9/11 taught me anything it is that you never know what is going to happen.  I grew up in Earthquake country so I try to be fairly prepared but passenger planes crashing into skyscrapers????  I definitely didn't see that one coming.

The best emergency system will always be the most redundant.  Have text message alerts by all means but back it up with land line calls and sirens and whatever else you can throw into the pot because you really can never tell what is going to happen next.


I know its been almost 20 years but, of there is any region that should be aware of this necessity, you would think it would be this one.  If folks need a reminder, just look at the memorial in front of the South Orange Train Station or the one in Hilton Park.


How would an emergency siren help in the event of another event like 9/11 or a chemical accident? How would people know what it was for? I grew up in South Orange and the emergency siren was used for two things (that I can remember): to alert the firemen to report, and to let us know that there was a school closing or delay. It was never used for flooding (and, oh boy, there was) or hurricanes or anything like that. Do a search here and see how many people complain when Seton Hall sets off its siren, nevertheless the "high taxes" and "nanny state" tropes.

I was watching Netflix and if it weren't for my cell phone, I would not have known what was happening. For those of you not getting alerts, make sure your location services are on. Also, while I understand that some people are not tied to their cellphones, there was sufficient and significant evidence for the potential of severe (extraordinary) weather. It is incumbent on each of us to be responsible for his/her self. Additionally, if you think your neighbor might not have gotten an alert, call him or her! We are a community, after all...


Maybe mandate installation of Tornado sirens in all basements.  Probably a more receptive audience.


My Dad was a weather geek -- always had a weather radio at home and on vacation, too. My former in-laws lived near a nuclear power plant -- alerts about that came over the weather radio as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Midland-WR120B-WR120EZ-Certified-Trilingual/dp/B00176T9OY/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2QN9N6L5TQFY&keywords=weather+radio&qid=1559315591&s=gateway&sprefix=weather+%2Caps%2C138&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1




marylago said:
How would an emergency siren help in the event of another event like 9/11 or a chemical accident? How would people know what it was for?  

My thought is that the town would instruct citizens that the siren was a sign to head inside and seek more information (turn on their phone, the radio, broadcast tv etc).  In the case of a Bhopal like event, that might save lives.  I only mentioned 9/11 as an example of an event where one pathway for communication (the phones) failed and so people in the effected area had to switch to other pathways.

Thats my thinking, anyways....


Robert_Casotto said:
Maybe mandate installation of Tornado sirens in all basements.  Probably a more receptive audience.

 Robert, I definitely give you permission to ignore any warning sirens, text alerts or radio broadcasts.

That said, if the siren DOES sound and you DO hear it, it would be a big help if you could go out and climb the flag pole to check on the little metal ball on the top.  That would probably be the best thing you could do for the community.


peteglider said:
My Dad was a weather geek -- always had a weather radio at home and on vacation, too. My former in-laws lived near a nuclear power plant -- alerts about that came over the weather radio as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Midland-WR120B-WR120EZ-Certified-Trilingual/dp/B00176T9OY/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2QN9N6L5TQFY&keywords=weather+radio&qid=1559315591&s=gateway&sprefix=weather+%2Caps%2C138&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

How many miles away are Indian Point and Toms River (as the crow flies or the glowing cloud blows)?


I heard a report on NPR this morning that the warning sirens in Dayton were dismantled a couple of decades ago because dangerous tornadoes were very rare there.




For the $20-30 a weather radio costs, for those concerned, buy one. Make sure batteries are changed annually too.


peteglider said:
For the $20-30 a weather radio costs, for those concerned, buy one. Make sure batteries are changed annually too.

 Do those have an alert feature for severe weather warnings or do you have to leave it on all the time? The one my in-laws have (many years old) has to be left on and constantly gives the forecast on a loop.


yahooyahoo said:
I heard a report on NPR this morning that the warning sirens in Dayton were dismantled a couple of decades ago because dangerous tornadoes were very rare there.




 I don't doubt that you heard it or someone said it...but Ohio is prime tornado country and it's highly unlikely that that is the actual reason.


sbenois said:


yahooyahoo said:
I heard a report on NPR this morning that the warning sirens in Dayton were dismantled a couple of decades ago because dangerous tornadoes were very rare there.
 I don't doubt that you heard it or someone said it...but Ohio is prime tornado country and it's highly unlikely that that is the actual reason.

Dayton turned off all of its sirens about 20 years ago because they were old and parts could no longer be obtained. Dayton had 23 sirens between 1950 and the turn of the century. They were originally installed as civil defense sirens and were then used for tornado notifications. .

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/breaking-news/why-tornado-sirens-dayton-officials-respond/QcyjfOi0TMJpYQ100uGo2I/  


mrincredible said:


peteglider said:
For the $20-30 a weather radio costs, for those concerned, buy one. Make sure batteries are changed annually too.
 Do those have an alert feature for severe weather warnings or do you have to leave it on all the time? The one my in-laws have (many years old) has to be left on and constantly gives the forecast on a loop.

 They have alert overrides so that the alert comes through like it does on a phone even if you are not listening to the forecast.  That is the advantage to one like the one shown over the ones that have a weather band built into a standard radio.  The model shown also has technology that lets you program your location.


cramer said:


sbenois said:

yahooyahoo said:
I heard a report on NPR this morning that the warning sirens in Dayton were dismantled a couple of decades ago because dangerous tornadoes were very rare there.
 I don't doubt that you heard it or someone said it...but Ohio is prime tornado country and it's highly unlikely that that is the actual reason.
Dayton turned off all of its sirens about 20 years ago because they were old and parts could no longer be obtained. Dayton had 23 sirens between 1950 and the turn of the century. They were originally installed as civil defense sirens and were then used for tornado notifications. .
https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/breaking-news/why-tornado-sirens-dayton-officials-respond/QcyjfOi0TMJpYQ100uGo2I/  

Okay, I mistinterpreted the reason for their removal. 

While Ohio has a decent number of tornadoes they are nowhere near as often as their neighbors to the west or south.



But still orders of magnitude higher in frequency and severity than what we see in NJ.  


max_weisenfeld said:
 They have alert overrides so that the alert comes through like it does on a phone even if you are not listening to the forecast.  That is the advantage to one like the one shown over the ones that have a weather band built into a standard radio.  The model shown also has technology that lets you program your location.

 Pretty cool. I completely overlooked the link. 


mrincredible said:
 Do those have an alert feature for severe weather warnings or do you have to leave it on all the time? The one my in-laws have (many years old) has to be left on and constantly gives the forecast on a loop.

 A siren plays when there’s an alert and voice message at same time 


So we getting this Siren System or what?  


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