Jobs, Jobs, Jobs....

an important aspect of many European countries' aid to workers is that they are paying employers to keep people on the payroll.  That means that workers had no interruptions in getting paid, and they will also still have jobs if their employers reopen.


ml1 said:

here's a pretty good rundown of benefits in the U.S. and Europe.  And the conclusion is:

But the level of support from different countries has varied around the world. The United States is solidly in the middle of the pack, while countries like Germany lead by offering over $5,000 in assistance to freelancers.

That rundown doesn’t include the $600 a week in extra unemployment benefits through July, which was my point: Discussions about what the federal government is doing often fail to account for that not-insignificant pledge of relief.


my post indicated "some countries" are turning to UBI, which is true.  And the U.S. is not.  We can agree to disagree whether $600 of unemployment is as good or better than UBI.  But what I wrote is accurate within the context of the point I was making.  UBI is likely a more robust economic stimulus than unemployment because it will go to everyone, even people who were already unemployed before the pandemic.  It will likely (depending on the amount) put more money back into the economy, and allow more people to pay their rent and buy food. 


mjc said:

I haven't followed this issue and don't know what the actual proposals are, but certainly people can figure out how to "open the economy" in graduated and relatively safe ways.  One tiny example: here in Wisconsin, the governor's order originally closed all golf courses.  After petition(s) and proposals from golfers, the courses are now open with restrictions:  pro shop closed, bars and restaurants closed, payment and tee times online, one person to a cart....  Yelling and waving guns don't improve the situation, but thoughtful compromise can.  Hoping for the best.

Similarly, here in NJ the golf courses could be open starting this past weekend, with similar conditions.  Twosomes were going out at tee times scheduled far enough apart to keep groups separate.

Now, did we see knuckleheads out at the Maplewood Country Club with 3 people congregating on a green watching each other putt?  Of course we did. 


ml1 said:

my post indicated "some countries" are turning to UBI, which is true. And the U.S. is not.

Like the U.S., Denmark and Britain started payroll programs for a limited time that differ from ours in amounts and implementation (for instance, direct government aid vs. loans that can be forgiven).

Which countries are turning to UBI?


PVW said:

I see nothing constructive these protestors are bringing to the table, just cruelty, ignorance, and rage.

They are a bunch of idiots that would mostly have kept quiet were it not for the encouragement from trump, fox news, and the rest of these republicans. You won't see Sean Hannity or Trump standing there without a mask yelling in people's faces. They all know better that that, they just use this to incite anger and division to advance their own agendas. 


DaveSchmidt said:

Like the U.S., Denmark and Britain started payroll programs for a limited time that differ from ours in amounts and implementation (for instance, direct government aid vs. loans that can be forgiven).

Which countries are turning to UBI?

 Spain. So it's at least one. And not the U.S. 

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/04/spains-ubi-is-a-wake-up-call-for-americans


And even if absolutely no other country moved to a UBI, it's not central to the point I was making about what would likely alleviate a lot of economic pain in this country during the pandemic. 


ml1 said:

And even if absolutely no other country moved to a UBI, it's not central to the point I was making about what would likely alleviate a lot of economic pain in this country during the pandemic.

Ergo, my addition of the unemployment supplement to the discussion, because I thought it was relevant to your central point and was often overlooked. Take it as something to consider, or take it as a challenge. It makes no difference to me.


DaveSchmidt said:

Ergo, my addition of the unemployment supplement to the discussion, because I thought it was relevant to your central point and was often overlooked. Take it as something to consider, or take it as a challenge. It makes no difference to me.

 a couple of us have considered it and replied.  


ml1 said:

 a couple of us have considered it and replied.  

Leading to further questions that narrowed the countries turning to UBI to, at a minimum, Spain. I learned something. Always grateful.


mjc said:

terp said: "This is just factually incorrect. There are a lot of people who want to
open things back up in smart ways. They are opening Huntington and
Laguna Beach in California. And those municipalities threatened legal
action against Newsome & and the state. Are they all crazy
people? They voted Democratic in the last election, but maybe they
woke up saw the Gadsen flag and pronounced their profound selfishness."

Not that it's the main point, but in fact Huntington Beach and Laguna both went for Trump in 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_California


I was wondering how Terp knew how sunbathers had voted.


drifts:

(Orange Count sunbathers)

(though apparently OC as a whole amazingly went for Clinton 51% to 42%, according to the same Wikipedia chart)

(also it's possible terp was referring to 2018, which i'm not going to look up)


And to get back to the point about the overwhelming majority of Americans being on board with pandemic restrictions, the WaPo and UMD did a poll last week and found that:

  • 82% of respondents said the restrictions on businesses in their states were "appropriate" or "not restrictive enough"  (emphasis added) 
  • 86% of respondents said restrictions on public gatherings in their state were "appropriate" or "not restrictive enough" (emphasis added)

poll results here


DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

So that said, what are the things that could have been or could be done to lessen the pain? Either emergency funding to businesses contingent on keeping employees on the payroll, or providing UBI directly to people so they can pay their rent and buy food in the near term. Those seem like no-brainers, and it's what some other countries have already pledged to do.

The U.S. government has pledged* $600 a week to unemployed workers through July. That alone covers average wages in all but a dozen states. What are the countries that have committed more?

* I used “pledged,” as you did, because I’m not saying everyone who should be getting this money is getting it yet.

 I know I’m late to the discussion, and I’ve missed a lot of it, but in answer to your question and on top of the $750 stimulus supplement that people on benefits received:

-Australia has implemented a stay on residential evictions for several months, as well as various programs for rent relief so that tenants, agents and landlords can plan during this period of low/no income. To support landlords in the meantime, banks have declared various  support programs on mortgages relating to rental properties.

-You might be interested to read up on our Jobseeker and Jobkeeper programs, which respectively temporarily double the rate of unemployment benefits, and enable eligible businesses to pay employees some wages until (August? Sept?) Lots of people and businesses aren’t eligible, but still these cover a broad percentage and union and community programs help with extra support for the rest. 

-We have our universal health care (Medicare), and most doctors are now consulting via telehealth where they can (simple phone calls, video if necessary or else you can visit for a flu shot or script etc). This means medical costs are reasonable; if you’re unemployed concessions apply.

-I believe that local Councils have put a delay on their rates, so ratepayers will have to pay but have more time. I think I read some articles about a couple reducing some levies, or implementing increases that were due. Various utility companies broadened their support programs for people in financial hardship; telecoms granted free data (quite generous amounts) using March & April.

There’s more, but I can’t remember it all just now. Please note that it was strongly suggested we not spend the stimulus supplement on ordinary bills, rent or groceries. This was to be on ‘little extras’, to help keep other small businesses afloat (so maybe service your car, or buy clothes, birthday presents etc)


While not about UBI specifically, on the topic of how different countries have responded to the economic component of this crisis, a few articles in the WaPo I have found interesting:

Europe has kept down pandemic unemployment -- and the U.S. hasn’t. Here’s why

U.S. unemployment is higher than Europe’s now. But we’ll likely recover faster

Pandemic shows contrasts between US, European safety nets

If I were to try and sum up the main points, it's that the US relies far more on unemployment insurance while European countries rely more on keeping people employed, with the main tradeoff being that the US labor force has more flexibility.

My own opinion on this is that the benefits of increased labor force flexibility, while real, are increasingly outweighed by the downsides. Opportunities for true upward mobility in our economy have been decreasing for a while, so for many workers this flexibility hasn't been offering the ability to choose jobs with more opportunity, but rather just choices between different, equally low-paying, low-advancement jobs. In a time of acute economic crisis, the situation's become even worse, as the choices are becoming no job, bad job, or bad job with grave health risks. I think the way the American economy is structured is not well-suited to the crisis (and more broadly, increasingly ill-suited to the modern economy).


PVW said:

While not about UBI specifically, on the topic of how different countries have responded to the economic component of this crisis, a few articles in the WaPo I have found interesting:

Europe has kept down pandemic unemployment -- and the U.S. hasn’t. Here’s why

U.S. unemployment is higher than Europe’s now. But we’ll likely recover faster

Pandemic shows contrasts between US, European safety nets

If I were to try and sum up the main points, it's that the US relies far more on unemployment insurance while European countries rely more on keeping people employed, with the main tradeoff being that the US labor force has more flexibility.

My own opinion on this is that the benefits of increased labor force flexibility, while real, are increasingly outweighed by the downsides. Opportunities for true upward mobility in our economy have been decreasing for a while, so for many workers this flexibility hasn't been offering the ability to choose jobs with more opportunity, but rather just choices between different, equally low-paying, low-advancement jobs. In a time of acute economic crisis, the situation's become even worse, as the choices are becoming no job, bad job, or bad job with grave health risks. I think the way the American economy is structured is not well-suited to the crisis (and more broadly, increasingly ill-suited to the modern economy).

 completely agree with this


Movement toward Europe's approach?

As Unemployment Soars, Lawmakers Push to Cover Workers’ Wages

WASHINGTON — One of the most progressive lawmakers in the House and one of the most conservative in the Senate, staring down a pandemic-driven unemployment rate at its highest level since the Great Depression, have come to the same conclusion: It’s time for the federal government to cover workers’ salaries.

  • Taken from politifact. 
    First seven months of their respective presidency.
  • Joe Biden, 2021: gain of 4,454,000 Donald Trump, 2017: 1,312,000  
  • The Democrats need to get out there and talk about the economy. Talk about how the BBB plan will actually affect all of us in a positive way. Stop with the infighting. Just get out there. 

A few laps of reducing child poverty could help as well.

The last guy said the stock market would crash with a President Biden win.  Instead we're hitting new highs.  This was a T**** mantra - Joe knows this isn't a proper metric to boast about on an hourly basis - like the last guy - but maybe he should.


Jaytee said:

  • Taken from politifact. 
    First seven months of their respective presidency.
  • Joe Biden, 2021: gain of 4,454,000 Donald Trump, 2017: 1,312,000  
  • The Democrats need to get out there and talk about the economy. Talk about how the BBB plan will actually affect all of us in a positive way. Stop with the infighting. Just get out there. 

Agreed on talking up the economy, however citing job gains coming out of a pandemic is kinda disingenuous and not an apples-to-apples comparison. 


jimmurphy said:

Jaytee said:

  • Taken from politifact. 
    First seven months of their respective presidency.
  • Joe Biden, 2021: gain of 4,454,000 Donald Trump, 2017: 1,312,000  
  • The Democrats need to get out there and talk about the economy. Talk about how the BBB plan will actually affect all of us in a positive way. Stop with the infighting. Just get out there. 

Agreed on talking up the economy, however citing job gains coming out of a pandemic is kinda disingenuous and not an apples-to-apples comparison. 

Gains are gains.  Biden should take credit.   Ronald Reagan didn't defeat the USSR, but the collapse occurred on his watch so he got to claim credit.


jimmurphy said:

Agreed on talking up the economy, however citing job gains coming out of a pandemic is kinda disingenuous and not an apples-to-apples comparison. 

 And this may be an issue with Dems, we're too honest.  If this was his predecessor - he would be doing laps about this being the best rebound in economic world history.

With a win like this - the right will fall back to the Afghanistan withdrawal.  Or illegal border crossing.  Critical race theory. Or whatever the pillow guy is up to.

Unfortunately, everything good that being done will always get buried in the right's talking points (lies).


It’s funny how the republicans will switch their attacks on the Democrats, to cultural issues, if the Economy and job market are doing well. Wait for it…they will look for some in the BBB that is going towards helping immigrants. Or like Jamie said…. Back to Kabul. Benghazi is kinda old now…


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