how do you talk to a Trump voter ...


mtierney said:

oh, never mind...

Smart move.


how do you talk to a Phil Murphy voter? ...

if they believe a wall around New Jersey will be built to keep rich people and businesses from moving out?
if they believe that it will make our revenue secure no matter how high taxes go?
if they believe that Pennsylvania will pay for it?
if they believe that every business could locate anywhere it wants will come to New Jersey anyway even after Phil Murphy eliminates our tax-incentive program?
if they believe that a small business owner making $30,000 a year can pay a $15 an hour minimum wage?
if they believe that just saying "We were Silicon Valley before there was Silicon Valley" will bring back high-tech?
if they believe Murphy is an an environmentalist even though he travels in a Gulfstream and owns three mansions?

if they believe that someone who once defended Goldman Sachs by comparing it to the Marine Corps cares about inequality?
if they believe that Murphy gets public school issues when his kids have never attended one?
if they believe that Goldman Sachs is a progressive organization?
If they believe every charter school is a Trojan horse for the destruction of public education?

if they believe that someone who personally profited from corporate welfare will eliminate it?

who likes Murphy because of that megawatt smile and because he's tall?
who then tell you to ignore what he says because he's "not a politician"? [no change necessary here from me]

if they believe that the pension crisis is "100%, 100%, 100% the state's fault"?
who believes that a few hundred million in tax increases can fill a multi-billion annual pension hole?

If they believe that the Abbotts just need even more money?

Who thinks Steve Sweeney is the devil?

And coming one day
if they believe 2+2 = 5. [no change necessary here from me]


Aside from political bosses are there any Phil Murphy voters at this point?



no please. don't go .

this thread was meant for you.

mtierney said:

oh, never mind...



drummerboy said: "Haven't read this yet, but it looks to be interesting. This thread is a good place for it, I think.
http://www.businessinsider.com/sam-altman-interview-trump-supporters-2017-2 "

db, thanks for posting this. a reality check, and not too long. : )


nice, but I do trust you see the difference, right?

(I know next to nothing about Murphy and his positions.)

Runner_Guy said:

how do you talk to a Phil Murphy voter? ...

if they believe a wall around New Jersey will be built to keep rich people and businesses from moving out?
if they believe that it will make our revenue secure no matter how high taxes go?
if they believe that Pennsylvania will pay for it?
if they believe that every business could locate anywhere it wants will come to New Jersey anyway even after Phil Murphy eliminates our tax-incentive program?
if they believe that a small business owner making $30,000 a year can pay a $15 an hour minimum wage?
if they believe that just saying "We were Silicon Valley before there was Silicon Valley" will bring back high-tech?
if they believe Murphy is an an environmentalist even though he travels in a Gulfstream and owns three mansions?

if they believe that someone who once defended Goldman Sachs by comparing it to the Marine Corps cares about inequality?
if they believe that Murphy gets public school issues when his kids have never attended one?
if they believe that Goldman Sachs is a progressive organization?
If they believe every charter school is a Trojan horse for the destruction of public education?

if they believe that someone who personally profited from corporate welfare will eliminate it?

who likes Murphy because of that megawatt smile and because he's tall?
who then tell you to ignore what he says because he's "not a politician"? [no change necessary here from me]

if they believe that the pension crisis is "100%, 100%, 100% the state's fault"?
who believes that a few hundred million in tax increases can fill a multi-billion annual pension hole?

If they believe that the Abbotts just need even more money?

Who thinks Steve Sweeney is the devil?

And coming one day
if they believe 2+2 = 5. [no change necessary here from me]




drummerboy said:

nice, but I do trust you see the difference, right?

(I know next to nothing about Murphy and his positions.)

Runner_Guy said:

how do you talk to a Phil Murphy voter? ...

if they believe a wall around New Jersey will be built to keep rich people and businesses from moving out?
if they believe that it will make our revenue secure no matter how high taxes go?
if they believe that Pennsylvania will pay for it?...
Who thinks Steve Sweeney is the devil?

And coming one day
if they believe 2+2 = 5. [no change necessary here from me]

( :

Unlike Trump, Phil Murphy is psychologically normal and free from xenophobia and sexism, but I think something he and Trump do legitimately have in common is a tendency to overpromise so much that they become liars, plain and simple.

Phil Murphy's agenda for NJ is at least a $7 billion a year expense ($3 bil for pensions, $2 bil for K-12 aid, $700 mil for PreK, $60 mil for an expanded EITC, hundreds of millions more for higher ed, transportation, healthcare, property tax rebates, tax incentives for loan forgiveness, tax incentives for startups, the possibility of "free" community college) etc etc.

There is no way NJ can afford that. It's about as realistic as Trump's promises. When Murphy is asked how he is going to afford his agenda he says Jerry Brown turned a deficit into a surplus in CA, so NJ can too.

Murphy also has a canned line "a budget is a statement of a society's values" and says he can afford everything by "prioritizing," but he never cites a single non-priority he's going to cut (unless you count tax incentives).

Real finance people should weigh in on this, but NJ cannot capitalize a state-owned back with pension money either. The pension trustees would never allow it. Since NJ has no other assets, it therefore cannot start a state-owned bank period.

Trump promised a manufacturing revival. Murphy promises a NJ high-tech revival, and goes back to our glory days of Sarnoff Labs, Bell Labs etc. Murphy always says "NJ was Silicon Valley before there was Silicon Valley."

I've seen Phil Murphy stump speeches where he has caught himself saying he's going to "make New Jersey great again."

And then there are the opportunistic attacks on political rivals just because those rivals have experience in Washington and Trenton, respectively.

There is also the falsification of personal experience. Trump presented himself as someone who was always against the Iraq War, for instance. Murphy presents himself as someone who was always a progressive, even though he donated to George W. Bush and he spent his career at... ummm.... Goldman Sachs (which he never mentions.)

So yes, I see many differences, but I also see many similarities.



prisoners_dilemma said:



soorlady said:

They have already deported families - so it's not just the "bad hombres" being asked to leave. My 9 year old grandson is worried about his friend, Angel, and I can't promise that his worry is not justified. But perhaps prisoners would be better swayed in this area by the impact on his cash. Without migrant labor, tomatoes are currently rotting in the field. Americans who responded to a help wanted ad were few and most didn't last through the day. Look forward to increased costs of fruits and vegetables in the future.

tjohn said:

Not really. We have never held immigrants from Mexico to the letter of the law. Why start now? Do you seriously think we would be better off if 100% of illegal immigrants (both those who have overstayed their visas and those who entered illegally) were expelled. How would that make things better? On top of that, under the Obama Administration, the bad hombres were being expelled as they were under previous administrations. Jeez man, even Inspector Javert grew a heart at the end.
prisoners_dilemma said:


3. "Tear mothers from their children", that's really "rich". Typical left wing, over hyperbolized claptrap. Illegally emigrating to a country, you either knew or should have known that there would be consequences had you gotten caught.

Perhaps Angel's parents should have done a cost benefit analysis before coming here. And perhaps some of the Americans that applied should have toughed it out a bit more in the fields. When you actually have to work, and I mean really work and scrape by, you tend to appreciate what you have. Maybe some of the over privileged college kids walking around with their white puzzle pieces could do this as a penance for their white privilege.


Seems like an odd commentary from someone who has clearly voted to restore white privilege.

However it will be interesting to see all of these under employed white Americans deal with the abundance of really hard jobs which were typically well performed by illegal labor (landscaping, house painting, construction, nannying). Most pay well above a minimum wage but require non-lazy people.



ml1 said:

why would we require immigrants to join the military when we don't require our own citizens to join the military to "contribute to the continued security" of the nation?

Because they are not white.



LOST said:

ml1,

You are too kind.

#2. One of the great Right-Wing myths. There may be a few people like that but not a "substantial" number. Unless, perhaps, you count certain children of very wealth families

#4. Not sure what "some amount" means. There may have been a few isolated instances,

#5. At best a complete mis-understanding of the word "socialist". But the reference to the "Frank Davis" conspiracy is telling. For the uninitiated the person in question was a buddy of Obama's granddad in Hawaii. Like old guys on a park bench buddies. 30 or 40 years before Davis was a "Red". The real loonies claim that Davis was Obama's father.

#7. Absolute nuts. And once he said that you folks should have stopped responding.
ml1 said:

you believe a few things that don't have supporting evidence.
prisoners_dilemma said:






1. I woukd say ISIS should be at the top of international threats, not only for what they're doing, but what they could do and represent.


2. I do believe there are a substantial amount of people that don't want to work for a living and do expect handouts.


3. Visual evidence indicates Trump's crowds were not the biggest ever.

4. I do believe there was some amount of voter fraud.

5. I do believe Obama is a socialist (Frank Marshall Davis anyone??). Bernie wears it proudly, why couldn't Obama?


6. Goldman is evil, part of "the machine", no argument there. Not exactly pleased about those appointments.


7. And yes, I do believe Obama/Hillary ordered a stand down because it didn't fit the narrative/optics they already released to the public.

And regarding #1, ISIS generates way more fear than danger in the US. Anyone who wants to fight ISIS but has no interest in any smart gun regulations in the US has no real interest in creating real safety in the US.


thanks for the explanation.

Runner_Guy said:



drummerboy said:

nice, but I do trust you see the difference, right?

(I know next to nothing about Murphy and his positions.)

Runner_Guy said:

how do you talk to a Phil Murphy voter? ...

if they believe a wall around New Jersey will be built to keep rich people and businesses from moving out?
if they believe that it will make our revenue secure no matter how high taxes go?
if they believe that Pennsylvania will pay for it?...
Who thinks Steve Sweeney is the devil?

And coming one day
if they believe 2+2 = 5. [no change necessary here from me]

( :


Unlike Trump, Phil Murphy is psychologically normal and free from xenophobia and sexism, but I think something he and Trump do legitimately have in common is a tendency to overpromise so much that they become liars, plain and simple.



Phil Murphy's agenda for NJ is at least a $7 billion a year expense ($3 bil for pensions, $2 bil for K-12 aid, $700 mil for PreK, $60 mil for an expanded EITC, hundreds of millions more for higher ed, transportation, healthcare, property tax rebates, tax incentives for loan forgiveness, tax incentives for startups, the possibility of "free" community college) etc etc.



There is no way NJ can afford that. It's about as realistic as Trump's promises. When Murphy is asked how he is going to afford his agenda he says Jerry Brown turned a deficit into a surplus in CA, so NJ can too.

Murphy also has a canned line "a budget is a statement of a society's values" and says he can afford everything by "prioritizing," but he never cites a single non-priority he's going to cut (unless you count tax incentives).

Real finance people should weigh in on this, but NJ cannot capitalize a state-owned back with pension money either. The pension trustees would never allow it. Since NJ has no other assets, it therefore cannot start a state-owned bank period.


Trump promised a manufacturing revival. Murphy promises a NJ high-tech revival, and goes back to our glory days of Sarnoff Labs, Bell Labs etc. Murphy always says "NJ was Silicon Valley before there was Silicon Valley."



I've seen Phil Murphy stump speeches where he has caught himself saying he's going to "make New Jersey great again."



And then there are the opportunistic attacks on political rivals just because those rivals have experience in Washington and Trenton, respectively.



There is also the falsification of personal experience. Trump presented himself as someone who was always against the Iraq War, for instance. Murphy presents himself as someone who was always a progressive, even though he donated to George W. Bush and he spent his career at... ummm.... Goldman Sachs (which he never mentions.)

So yes, I see many differences, but I also see many similarities.



"well above" minimum wage?

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I do highly doubt that.

Woot said:



prisoners_dilemma said:



soorlady said:

They have already deported families - so it's not just the "bad hombres" being asked to leave. My 9 year old grandson is worried about his friend, Angel, and I can't promise that his worry is not justified. But perhaps prisoners would be better swayed in this area by the impact on his cash. Without migrant labor, tomatoes are currently rotting in the field. Americans who responded to a help wanted ad were few and most didn't last through the day. Look forward to increased costs of fruits and vegetables in the future.

tjohn said:

Not really. We have never held immigrants from Mexico to the letter of the law. Why start now? Do you seriously think we would be better off if 100% of illegal immigrants (both those who have overstayed their visas and those who entered illegally) were expelled. How would that make things better? On top of that, under the Obama Administration, the bad hombres were being expelled as they were under previous administrations. Jeez man, even Inspector Javert grew a heart at the end.
prisoners_dilemma said:


3. "Tear mothers from their children", that's really "rich". Typical left wing, over hyperbolized claptrap. Illegally emigrating to a country, you either knew or should have known that there would be consequences had you gotten caught.

Perhaps Angel's parents should have done a cost benefit analysis before coming here. And perhaps some of the Americans that applied should have toughed it out a bit more in the fields. When you actually have to work, and I mean really work and scrape by, you tend to appreciate what you have. Maybe some of the over privileged college kids walking around with their white puzzle pieces could do this as a penance for their white privilege.




Seems like an odd commentary from someone who has clearly voted to restore white privilege.

However it will be interesting to see all of these under employed white Americans deal with the abundance of really hard jobs which were typically well performed by illegal labor (landscaping, house painting, construction, nannying). Most pay well above a minimum wage but require non-lazy people.



Why would you try to talk to a Trump voter?



fairplay said:

Why would you try to talk to a Trump voter?

To get him or her to vote differently next time around.



LOST said:



fairplay said:

Why would you try to talk to a Trump voter?

To get him or her to vote differently next time around.

I thought you shouldn't really try to discuss anything with someone who's irrational.


the key to the next election is getting more people to vote, and getting the Stein voters to vote Democratic.



fairplay said:



LOST said:



fairplay said:

Why would you try to talk to a Trump voter?

To get him or her to vote differently next time around.

I thought you shouldn't really try to discuss anything with someone who's irrational.

They are not all irrational. Some are just badly misinformed. However I mostly agree with ml1, except that many Stein voters are clearly irrational.


ml1 said:

the key to the next election is getting more people to vote, and getting the Stein voters to vote Democratic.



I don't think they are irrational the way many Trump voters were. If the Democrats nominate someone more progressive next time around, about half of Stein voters are probably reachable.

LOST said:



fairplay said:



LOST said:



fairplay said:

Why would you try to talk to a Trump voter?

To get him or her to vote differently next time around.

I thought you shouldn't really try to discuss anything with someone who's irrational.

They are not all irrational. Some are just badly misinformed. However I mostly agree with ml1, except that many Stein voters are clearly irrational.




ml1 said:

the key to the next election is getting more people to vote, and getting the Stein voters to vote Democratic.




drummerboy said:

"well above" minimum wage?

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I do highly doubt that.

Woot said:



prisoners_dilemma said:



soorlady said:

They have already deported families - so it's not just the "bad hombres" being asked to leave. My 9 year old grandson is worried about his friend, Angel, and I can't promise that his worry is not justified. But perhaps prisoners would be better swayed in this area by the impact on his cash. Without migrant labor, tomatoes are currently rotting in the field. Americans who responded to a help wanted ad were few and most didn't last through the day. Look forward to increased costs of fruits and vegetables in the future.

tjohn said:

Not really. We have never held immigrants from Mexico to the letter of the law. Why start now? Do you seriously think we would be better off if 100% of illegal immigrants (both those who have overstayed their visas and those who entered illegally) were expelled. How would that make things better? On top of that, under the Obama Administration, the bad hombres were being expelled as they were under previous administrations. Jeez man, even Inspector Javert grew a heart at the end.
prisoners_dilemma said:


3. "Tear mothers from their children", that's really "rich". Typical left wing, over hyperbolized claptrap. Illegally emigrating to a country, you either knew or should have known that there would be consequences had you gotten caught.

Perhaps Angel's parents should have done a cost benefit analysis before coming here. And perhaps some of the Americans that applied should have toughed it out a bit more in the fields. When you actually have to work, and I mean really work and scrape by, you tend to appreciate what you have. Maybe some of the over privileged college kids walking around with their white puzzle pieces could do this as a penance for their white privilege.




Seems like an odd commentary from someone who has clearly voted to restore white privilege.

However it will be interesting to see all of these under employed white Americans deal with the abundance of really hard jobs which were typically well performed by illegal labor (landscaping, house painting, construction, nannying). Most pay well above a minimum wage but require non-lazy people.

My nanny earns 2.5x minimum wage. And house painters earn about $100 day. Cash.


If they have 'white privilege' a house painter earns about $105 day.



lord_pabulum said:

If they have 'white privilege' a house painter earns about $105 day.

Right. Or not.

What is your point? I think the broader point of this thread is that people are struggling with how to engage with you given your irrational support of the orange-haired fascist.


Lacks an understanding of what the term means. House painter? Huh?



Has nothing to do with color. Looking at the stats, most of the military is white. It has everything to do with contributing to society as a whole, and yes, we should require our citizens, all of our citizens to serve at least 2 years.

Woot said:



ml1 said:

why would we require immigrants to join the military when we don't require our own citizens to join the military to "contribute to the continued security" of the nation?

Because they are not white.




prisoners_dilemma said:

Has nothing to do with color. Looking at the stats, most of the military is white. It has everything to do with contributing to society as a whole, and yes, we should require our citizens, all of our citizens to serve at least 2 years.

Woot said:



ml1 said:

why would we require immigrants to join the military when we don't require our own citizens to join the military to "contribute to the continued security" of the nation?

Because they are not white.

Serve in what capacity and who is going to pay for it? And how to propose to control 4 million boys and girls enjoying extended camp?



prisoners_dilemma said:

Has nothing to do with color. Looking at the stats, most of the military is white. It has everything to do with contributing to society as a whole, and yes, we should require our citizens, all of our citizens to serve at least 2 years.

Woot said:



ml1 said:

why would we require immigrants to join the military when we don't require our own citizens to join the military to "contribute to the continued security" of the nation?

Because they are not white.

Why would we need every person to serve 2 years? Isn't it cheaper and easier to avoid stupid military activity?



Woot said:



prisoners_dilemma said:

Has nothing to do with color. Looking at the stats, most of the military is white. It has everything to do with contributing to society as a whole, and yes, we should require our citizens, all of our citizens to serve at least 2 years.

Woot said:



ml1 said:

why would we require immigrants to join the military when we don't require our own citizens to join the military to "contribute to the continued security" of the nation?

Because they are not white.

Why would we need every person to serve 2 years? Isn't it cheaper and easier to avoid stupid military activity?

The Armed Forces don't need 4 million trainees, even if willing. If you have everybody serving, the majority would be serving in non-military roles.


I can see this is going to be a productive conversation by way of you designating military activity "stupid". Have you served? Do you speak from experience? Or are you just casting aspersions about the unfamiliar?

You appear to be missing the larger point I'm trying to make. Some sort of civic duty that requires the citizenry to participate and build their society as are cohesive unit might do wonders for the divisiveness making the rounds in the country today.

Woot said:



prisoners_dilemma said:

Has nothing to do with color. Looking at the stats, most of the military is white. It has everything to do with contributing to society as a whole, and yes, we should require our citizens, all of our citizens to serve at least 2 years.

Woot said:



ml1 said:

why would we require immigrants to join the military when we don't require our own citizens to join the military to "contribute to the continued security" of the nation?

Because they are not white.

Why would we need every person to serve 2 years? Isn't it cheaper and easier to avoid stupid military activity?



Yeah, you got me good keyboard warrior. When was the last time you left your mom's basememt? You're drivel is beginning to remind me of Farva from Supertroopers. Why don't you acknowledge that there are dissenting or alternative points of view that don't fit your narrow left wing natrative? Not everyone has to believe (in) the same thing, get over it.

drummerboy said:

game, set,match.

Mic drop.

The fat lady has sung.

Elvis has left the building.

I could not have asked for a more perfect representative to join this thread.

My work is done.



prisoners_dilemma said:

It's what I believe. I don't need supporting evidence. Millions of Muslims believe in Mohammed, Christians in Christ. They were actual people, but there's no hard evidence they exist and supernatural beings.




lord_pabulum said:

If they have 'white privilege' a house painter earns about $105 day.

What if I want my house painted a different color than white?

Do I need a colored painter?


In order to add a comment – you must Join this community – Click here to do so.

Rentals

Sponsored Business

Find Business

Advertisement

Advertise here!