Holocaust survivor spoke at SOMS, questions archived
Seems to me that maybe her story has innacuracies and maybe it doesn't.
Regardless:
1. Perhaps the father should not have shared this with child yet
2. Perhaps children are not capable yet to discuss this debate without misconstruing for "holocost denier"
3. Is a good discussion with mature people who could be dispassionate - not the case here
Regardless:
1. Perhaps the father should not have shared this with child yet
2. Perhaps children are not capable yet to discuss this debate without misconstruing for "holocost denier"
3. Is a good discussion with mature people who could be dispassionate - not the case here
Posted By: WootSeems to me that maybe her story has innacuracies and maybe it doesn't.
Regardless:
1. Perhaps the father should not have shared this with child yet
2. Perhaps children are not capable yet to discuss this debate without misconstruing for "holocost denier"
3. Is a good discussion with mature people who could be dispassionate - not the case here
yes, I'm beginning to hate Facebook. Also, maybe someone should have googled Irene Zisblatt before having her speak to our children???
What a sad story. I agree with Woot very much. It's enough for children of that age to take in the holocaust, and to have listened to a story about it without tackling all this. And yes, someone with less controversy associated with them would have been...better.
check with LL - not only a local library person with great knowledge, she's also involved in Shoah (Holocaust) research.
Mar 15, 2010 at 3:34am Edited
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_(book)[/url]
this book by Elie Wiesel should be mandatory reading for everyone that was in that auditorium and for all the parents of children who were in that auditorium.
this book by Elie Wiesel should be mandatory reading for everyone that was in that auditorium and for all the parents of children who were in that auditorium.
I found a blog post calling Zisblatt a fraud, but the blogger is a holocaust denier.
It's possible that Zisblatt misremembers things that happened 50-odd years ago, but that doesn't make her a liar.
It's possible that Zisblatt misremembers things that happened 50-odd years ago, but that doesn't make her a liar.
An inlaw (ish) of mine is a big authority in Holocaust Studies. Its actually a little uncomfortable to talk to her about things sometimes because she is so adamant about the facts and holocaust deniers.
She HATES Zisblatt with a passion. It was thanksgiving and we were talking about someone who was speaking at the Mahwah Library. She said:
As long as its not Irene Zisblatt. We all saw some nasty things but apparently she saw them all, plus some. She makes us all look like idiots.
She HATES Zisblatt with a passion. It was thanksgiving and we were talking about someone who was speaking at the Mahwah Library. She said:
As long as its not Irene Zisblatt. We all saw some nasty things but apparently she saw them all, plus some. She makes us all look like idiots.
the last bit of a customer review of her book on Amazon:
"It's hard to decide if I'm more stunned by this books actual existence, its alleged nomination for a Pulitzer, or by Steven Spielberg's support. That Mrs. Zisblatt is currently lecturing to gymnasiums full of school children is even more deplorable. To exploit the kind of evil that she is exploiting for her own amusement and profit is truly abhorrent. There are no words to express my profound disgust. "
"It's hard to decide if I'm more stunned by this books actual existence, its alleged nomination for a Pulitzer, or by Steven Spielberg's support. That Mrs. Zisblatt is currently lecturing to gymnasiums full of school children is even more deplorable. To exploit the kind of evil that she is exploiting for her own amusement and profit is truly abhorrent. There are no words to express my profound disgust. "
I don't think that there can be any question that Ms. Zisblatt is a holocaust survivor. However, there appear to be many questions about her recollection of her experiences. Since she didn't start talking about the subject until around fifty years after the war, this isn't unexpected. How many of us can remember details from fifty years ago?
Because of the inaccuracies and the emotional nature of her story I am not sure that she is an appropriate speaker on this subject at a public middle school. The holocaust should be studied in school, but the study should be fact based and historical, not emotional.
Because of the inaccuracies and the emotional nature of her story I am not sure that she is an appropriate speaker on this subject at a public middle school. The holocaust should be studied in school, but the study should be fact based and historical, not emotional.
Not to defend Zisblatt, whom I've never heard of, but many survivors didn't speak for that period. We met one whom my daughter interviewed for her bat mitzvah project. She is not very vocal, and it took her a long time to realize that her story is important.
Are my husband and I the only ones who question the appropriateness of exposing bar and bat mitzvah aged children to all of the ugly, graphic details of that time? They all know about the holocaust, they study it in school or in religious school. Is it really necessary for them to be taken to the holocaust museum where they have to see it all in pictures? Can't it wait until they're older?
really Lizziecat, your kids probably see much worse on TV and in movies let alone the internet, so why is something that can teach a lesson inappropriate?
It's a perfect time to start learning about topics that are difficult to stomach, when they are real life stories.
The only "questioners" of her story that I can find on line are the usual group of "holocaust deniers". She has appeared on Charlies Rose, Steven Spielberg's movie, etc.
Posted By: Tom ReingoldIt's a perfect time to start learning about topics that are difficult to stomach, when they are real life stories.
The whole topic of the Holocaust and Holocaust literature makes me really squeamish. Its possibly the only history that I find very disturbing on lots of levels. My daughter did tell me about the Holocaust speaker and a few years ago was really interested in Anne Frank. I talk to her about these things because I think its important, but I am really, really uncomfortable about it because I think I am about to break into tears. (much like when I kept seeing the pictures of the poor Haitians after the earthquake).
I kind of wonder if as a 40 year old woman, I find this topic really upsetting that maybe it shouldn't be so graphically presented to 12 year olds.
My kid did tell me that one of the other kids told her that "It didn't really happen like that". I was a bit shocked because it did seem like the kid was saying "The holocaust didn't happen like that", which probably wasn't her intention.
I kind of wonder if as a 40 year old woman, I find this topic really upsetting that maybe it shouldn't be so graphically presented to 12 year olds.
My kid did tell me that one of the other kids told her that "It didn't really happen like that". I was a bit shocked because it did seem like the kid was saying "The holocaust didn't happen like that", which probably wasn't her intention.
That's what I was thinking, Campbell. I think that of course they should be taught about what happened, but that maybe they shouldn't be presented with the graphic images at such a young age.
Bella; they aren't my kids. My kids are middle-aged men. I'm thinking about kids in general. And I agree that they should be taught about it--I just think that the images could wait a while.
Bella; they aren't my kids. My kids are middle-aged men. I'm thinking about kids in general. And I agree that they should be taught about it--I just think that the images could wait a while.
I don't think there's anything wrong with exposing Middle School age kids to the horors of the Honocaust. Some small percentage of the kids may not be able to handle the graphics, but I think this is unusual.
We read "Night" as required reading in a Catholic high school in the late 60's early 70's. I think its a superb entre to the topic.
I don't know anything about Zisblatt who may or may not be claiming now to have witnessed horrors that she did not personally witness. But, who would deny that they (or atrocities which are categorically similar) did in fact happen and were in fact witnessed by someone if not Zisblatt? Maybe these are essential truths delivered in the guise of what my mother called "white lies". It's not so important whether or not Zisblatt saw these things, it's only important that they happened and that we are still lucky enough to have people around who can bear witness to the events.
We read "Night" as required reading in a Catholic high school in the late 60's early 70's. I think its a superb entre to the topic.
I don't know anything about Zisblatt who may or may not be claiming now to have witnessed horrors that she did not personally witness. But, who would deny that they (or atrocities which are categorically similar) did in fact happen and were in fact witnessed by someone if not Zisblatt? Maybe these are essential truths delivered in the guise of what my mother called "white lies". It's not so important whether or not Zisblatt saw these things, it's only important that they happened and that we are still lucky enough to have people around who can bear witness to the events.
My feeling is that presenting terrible images when a child is too young or immature just makes the child more resistant to it when they are older. It is just my personal experiences (not data) that influences my opinion.
Mar 15, 2010 at 11:11am Edited
Posted By: mjhMy feeling is that presenting terrible images when a child is too young or immature just makes the child more resistant to it when they are older. It is just my personal experiences (not data) that influences my opinion.
Could be. There may be psychological studies of presenting horror to the young.
But I wonder what the point is of showing graphic images. What does it really add to their education?
There are many crimes and atrocities that we know about and teach about without bothering to show graphic or horrible images. For example, rape is a serious problem, but we do not show pictures of their damaged privates. Neither do we show grisly pictures of murder victims.
We have holocaust victims often speaking in great detail of their horrors. Should we also ask rape victims to speak, giving the details of their horrors?
Photos and film of Holocaust atrocities are quite accessible. I'd be surprised if a 12 year old from these parts hadn't already seen plenty of it. I would neither shelter my kids from it nor would I allow them to obsess over it.
When I was in 3rd to 6th grade I was very into reading about Native Americans. It got kind of depressing though, because they always got tricked and slaughtered. My mother used to tell me that she didn't think it was good to dwell on sad things, that there are lots of sad, horrible things in the world, but that we don't need to immerse ourselves in them. and that I should read some other things.
Mar 15, 2010 at 11:22am Edited
Sorry for the mini-lecture. It's just I feel strongly...
I can't speak about the author in question. I can speak about the living witnesses and how they are used to educate young school-aged children here in Australia. My mother was a Living Guide at Melbourne's Holocaust Museum and Research Centre, she willingly gave her testimony to Yad Vashem, she made sure we all knew her story and her family's story, although it wasn't until the 70s that she started to speak up beyond the half-sentences within tight family gatherings of fellow-survivors. She gave her story to a women survivors' research paper in Melbourne. As part of that she has her story detailed in the State Library of Victoria. She knew Elie Wiesel, and Serge and Beate Klarsfeld by correspondence in her capacity as Museum newsletter editor, welcomed them to Australia and joined them in gathering local testimonies for their research.
Dad was also a survivor, with years in Ghetto, and forced labour camp. He lost almost his entire family, which was a very large and prominent one before Shoah. And as a book editor, I have worked on several self-published volumes by survivors, that told part of the story (rarely the entire story) of the horror years, so that grandchildren could finally understand the Lost Years or Life in Terror.
Each and every survivor I have known, lived with and worked with wants their experience known, in all its horror, so that school children will know it starts with them. They are concerned that the level and strategies of modern schoolyard bullying are how another Shoah will arise in almost no time, because no-one will stand up and question what is happening. Here, survivors involved in B'nai B'rith and Holocaust Museum projects that link with schools (Courage to Care) teach school children that the greatest power they have is to stand up for each other and say no to abuse of power by others - bullies, authorities misusing power, criminals. The greatest power a citizen has is to wisely choose representation for government, hold that representation accountable. But you have to learn you can legitimately defy when you are a child, and you need a family behind you when you make your stand.
When the world started learning about the horrors of the civil war in Eritrea and later in Rwanda, my mother recoiled and literally wailed. Rwanda destroyed her belief that humanity had learned from Shoah and ensure genocide would not be allowed to occur - she was stunned with Jugoslavia, East Timor and Kuwait, at how slow we were to respond to the crises but Rwanda froze her as she realised 'no-one will do anything because black people are killing each other'. I watched her philosophical crisis, watched her mentally sit shiva for the world and heard her next lessons for the Museum's school children: this starts with hate for your fellows because they are different - whatever the difference is. Don't kid yourselves. We are all to blame - every one of us who does nothing to stop this is as bad as someone who takes the wrong action; fear is not the way to live, and you cannot live in fear for even one day without compromising your humanity. THIS IS HOW YOU TAKE ACTION (and she would list the ethical and democratic steps of protest our society endorses)
You can deal with nightmares and family discussions should a talk be handled badly. But the talk should be presented, and material for family follow-up should be provided. In the education processes I know, counseling and support are always available for those most deeply troubled - indeed, they are easily spotted during the talk and are encouraged to leave the room with a teacher's aide to talk through what is troubling them.
Children today see glib and superficial annihilation and mass murder all around them. There is wholesale violence and implied aggression in much of our entertainment, news and art. Intellectually many children know 'yeah this happened. Life is fragile. so what' and persist in the 'never happen to me' immortality that bolsters unthinking health and optimism. They need to be shocked out of complacency and learn the truth in all its harshness, so that this ugliness will not be repeated. It needs to happen in elementary school and in high school and in college years - it needs to happen until the message sinks in: bullying, discrimination and genocide are related. They don't just happen in a far-away time or a far-away place, they happen HERE, to people we know and love, they alter lives and dreams, and shatter families. They need to know this is why we have politics and law, a system of community to protect and shelter us but also that we must participate in regulating and keeping honest.
(edited to insert name of projects)
I can't speak about the author in question. I can speak about the living witnesses and how they are used to educate young school-aged children here in Australia. My mother was a Living Guide at Melbourne's Holocaust Museum and Research Centre, she willingly gave her testimony to Yad Vashem, she made sure we all knew her story and her family's story, although it wasn't until the 70s that she started to speak up beyond the half-sentences within tight family gatherings of fellow-survivors. She gave her story to a women survivors' research paper in Melbourne. As part of that she has her story detailed in the State Library of Victoria. She knew Elie Wiesel, and Serge and Beate Klarsfeld by correspondence in her capacity as Museum newsletter editor, welcomed them to Australia and joined them in gathering local testimonies for their research.
Dad was also a survivor, with years in Ghetto, and forced labour camp. He lost almost his entire family, which was a very large and prominent one before Shoah. And as a book editor, I have worked on several self-published volumes by survivors, that told part of the story (rarely the entire story) of the horror years, so that grandchildren could finally understand the Lost Years or Life in Terror.
Each and every survivor I have known, lived with and worked with wants their experience known, in all its horror, so that school children will know it starts with them. They are concerned that the level and strategies of modern schoolyard bullying are how another Shoah will arise in almost no time, because no-one will stand up and question what is happening. Here, survivors involved in B'nai B'rith and Holocaust Museum projects that link with schools (Courage to Care) teach school children that the greatest power they have is to stand up for each other and say no to abuse of power by others - bullies, authorities misusing power, criminals. The greatest power a citizen has is to wisely choose representation for government, hold that representation accountable. But you have to learn you can legitimately defy when you are a child, and you need a family behind you when you make your stand.
When the world started learning about the horrors of the civil war in Eritrea and later in Rwanda, my mother recoiled and literally wailed. Rwanda destroyed her belief that humanity had learned from Shoah and ensure genocide would not be allowed to occur - she was stunned with Jugoslavia, East Timor and Kuwait, at how slow we were to respond to the crises but Rwanda froze her as she realised 'no-one will do anything because black people are killing each other'. I watched her philosophical crisis, watched her mentally sit shiva for the world and heard her next lessons for the Museum's school children: this starts with hate for your fellows because they are different - whatever the difference is. Don't kid yourselves. We are all to blame - every one of us who does nothing to stop this is as bad as someone who takes the wrong action; fear is not the way to live, and you cannot live in fear for even one day without compromising your humanity. THIS IS HOW YOU TAKE ACTION (and she would list the ethical and democratic steps of protest our society endorses)
You can deal with nightmares and family discussions should a talk be handled badly. But the talk should be presented, and material for family follow-up should be provided. In the education processes I know, counseling and support are always available for those most deeply troubled - indeed, they are easily spotted during the talk and are encouraged to leave the room with a teacher's aide to talk through what is troubling them.
Children today see glib and superficial annihilation and mass murder all around them. There is wholesale violence and implied aggression in much of our entertainment, news and art. Intellectually many children know 'yeah this happened. Life is fragile. so what' and persist in the 'never happen to me' immortality that bolsters unthinking health and optimism. They need to be shocked out of complacency and learn the truth in all its harshness, so that this ugliness will not be repeated. It needs to happen in elementary school and in high school and in college years - it needs to happen until the message sinks in: bullying, discrimination and genocide are related. They don't just happen in a far-away time or a far-away place, they happen HERE, to people we know and love, they alter lives and dreams, and shatter families. They need to know this is why we have politics and law, a system of community to protect and shelter us but also that we must participate in regulating and keeping honest.
(edited to insert name of projects)
ironically, the student who said Ms. Zisblatts story may not be completly true, is being bullied.
Not ironic. It's often the experience of the Living Guides. There is very strong identification with the personal account and that's why the element of personal guidance is built into the Australian program.
Mar 15, 2010 at 11:43am Edited
Posted By: crazy_quilterironically, the student who said Ms. Zisblatts story may not be completly true, is being bullied.
I thought of the bullying earlier and meant to post but forgot until your reminder.
What is the school doing about her being bullied?
you know, come to think of it, there probably should have been some discussion time after this speaker?
I definitely see it is more complex then I can sort out, so I'm sure 7th graders could be totally overwhelmed.
It's not an ongoing program or part of another program, it was a one time thing (that's my understanding, but I often get incomplete info from my child).
I definitely see it is more complex then I can sort out, so I'm sure 7th graders could be totally overwhelmed.
It's not an ongoing program or part of another program, it was a one time thing (that's my understanding, but I often get incomplete info from my child).
Posted By: BernI doubt the school knows.Posted By: crazy_quilterironically, the student who said Ms. Zisblatts story may not be completly true, is being bullied.
I thought of the bullying earlier and meant to post but forgot until your reminder.
What is the school doing about her being bullied?
Posted By: ragnatelaPhotos and film of Holocaust atrocities are quite accessible. I'd be surprised if a 12 year old from these parts hadn't already seen plenty of it. I would neither shelter my kids from it nor would I allow them to obsess over it.
Just how does it work to "not allow them to obsess over it"? I really am curious, as it seems to me that while you may forbid them from speaking to you about it, that's hardly the same as stopping them obsessing about it. You've cut off discussion, but not necessarily thoughts or feelings.
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spoke at SOMS this year. My daughter came home, upset about the injections into her eyes and other atrocities this woman talked about. I had some questions at this point as to why we weren't informed that our children were going to be told these stories, but my daughter seemed to be handling it and we moved on. She said the woman said she was telling children these stories to prevent this from ever happening again.
The fall out now that is happening is that one student showed the book to her father, and he started having trouble with the inconsistencies in the book. He did some research and told her that the woman's story was inaccurate. This student posted that she felt sad that the story wasn't true. Now she is being hounded by other students who are telling her she is anti-semetic and a holocaust denier. She says that she definitely believes in the holocaust, but continues to stand by what she said.
Irene Zisblatt was brought to the school as part of a Bar Mitzvah project, I believe.
here's one thing I found: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html
anyone out there who can untangle this a little for me?