Farmers Market Parking - warning!

the18thletter said:

jmitw said:

the issue is you can legally park in a private lot with permission.  precedent seems to be that the owner allowed it...so yes, there should have been sufficient warning...and legally adequate.  those signs may not be legally adequate as they are easily blocked.

If you have permission then the you aren't illegally parking on private property. If you don't have permission you are parked illegally. It seems really simple but perhaps I am missing something.

what you are missing is the long term lack of enforcement gave the appearance of permission....

jmitw said:

that is not his job to warn people. his job is to watch them walk away and boot them.

Perhaps people can be forgiven if they think his job is to prevent cars from parking there, which a warning would accomplish.

Op said there are "new big signs".

"the sign was blocked" is not a legitimate gripe unless lot owner intentionally and effectively blocked signs. Parker has responsibility to expend reasonable effort to look for signs. 

jmitw said:

Jaytee said:

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Another question... is the guy putting on the boot and stickering the car, also standing there, watching suckers park and then pouncing?  If he is watching the trespass take place and not telling people, "you can't park here?... Well that would make a small claim case to recover the boot fee a bit more difficult for the lot owner to defend.

maybe they are tired and fed up with people parking there and not paying attention to the signs. I think there should bus bigger sign at the entrances to the lot. But I would be fed up also if people just keep feeling they’re entitled to park on my property because it’s close to where they want to go.  People used to do it behind the movie theater too until they started ticketing them. 
good luck with a small claim case…maybe they should just start towing the cars. 

but again the problem is that they ALLOWED it for a long time. sure they have a right to start enforcement, but since they essentially gave permission, they can't just suddenly snare people. the ethical thing is appropriate signage indicating the change (ie beginning June 1, customer parking only enforced and all unauthorized cars are subject to booting and towing).  The sign needs to be visible and they could have done 1 round of warning flyers the 1st week of the farmers market.

What do you mean by allowed?  Did they give permission to the general public to park there?  I don't think so. More like, people have been taking advantage of their non-enforcement for many years and now they are finally doing something about it.

jmitw said:

what you are missing is the long term lack of enforcement gave the appearance of permission....

That sounds like entitlement to me. Just because you got away with something doesn't mean it's legal. The appearance of permission is not the same as permission. 

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Jaytee said:….People used to do it behind the movie theater too until they started ticketing them. 
good luck with a small claim case…maybe they should just start towing the cars. 

…IF Peter D. Parkinglotowner bought a couple of 'boots," places an ineffective sign - 
then allows the sign to be blocked and collects $180 to remove the boot --in other words, if he's using this as a money maker. That is not ok.

The difference between the movie house? The owner didn't get the money for the tickets.

No reason to assume the lot owner is getting any revenue beyond what the tow company might be paying them for the right to boot, tow, impound, etc.  Often it’s the tow company that’s pocketing the fee, not the owner. 

sac said:

I have wondered about the parking lot in the village behind the bank building.  It was always understood that it was OK to park there when the bank was not open and parking restrictions were not enforced (except possibly overnight.)  Does anyone know the status of that lot now?  It's hard to judge based on posted signs since there have always been signs there.

It’s probably ok (setting aside the act of parking illegally on private property), given that the tows and warnings were a result of the bank (who is/was a tenant, not an owner) speaking to the mgmt company about a rising amount of customer complaints regarding parking during business hours. 

Smedley said:

Op said there are "new big signs".

"the sign was blocked" is not a legitimate gripe unless lot owner intentionally and effectively blocked signs. Parker has responsibility to expend reasonable effort to look for signs. 

the effectively did.  they allowed a large farmers market truck to park there.  they would have seen the sign was blocked

the18thletter said:

That sounds like entitlement to me. Just because you got away with something doesn't mean it's legal. The appearance of permission is not the same as permission. 

that sounds like poor comprehension to me.

this is not about 'getting away with it' the past.  this is about the owner giving the impression it was ALLOWED...yes it is effectively the same.  the owner allowed people to believe they had permission.

jmitw said:

that sounds like poor comprehension to me.

this is not about 'getting away with it' the past.  this is about the owner giving the impression it was ALLOWED...yes it is effectively the same.  the owner allowed people to believe they had permission.

The impression of permission is not the same as permission, thats not a comprehension problem on my part. 

Would an easement resulting from lack of parking enforcement over a long period of time apply in this case?

My understanding is that they tried to enforce their parking rules last year as well, short of towing.  

This happened when Bank of A sold its building in New Providence a couple of years ago. Though it had always been “bank only” parking, with appropriate signage, for as long as anyone could recall, any time the bank wasn’t open, it was used as spillover for Prestige Diner. Then the new owner (building is still empty) put up new No Parking signs and hired a towing company to station a truck there and do immediate tows of violators. They call it predatory towing, I think. (As to the market vendor parking a truck in the Maplewood lot, there’s a good chance that farmer is renting that parking space.)

ctrzaska said:

No reason to assume the lot owner is getting any revenue beyond what the tow company might be paying them for the right to boot, tow, impound, etc.  Often it’s the tow company that’s pocketing the fee, not the owner. 

Not necessarily so.... if the lot owner also bought and owns the boots, and keeps the fee to remove them....

Remember when that space where the farmers market is now was empty? Why did anyone think they put up that fence? People were parking in the empty lot. Private property. 

Heynj said:

This happened when Bank of A sold its building in New Providence a couple of years ago. Though it had always been “bank only” parking, with appropriate signage, for as long as anyone could recall, any time the bank wasn’t open, it was used as spillover for Prestige Diner. Then the new owner (building is still empty) put up new No Parking signs and hired a towing company to station a truck there and do immediate tows of violators. They call it predatory towing, I think. (As to the market vendor parking a truck in the Maplewood lot, there’s a good chance that farmer is renting that parking space.)

Why not make some money and charge for parking?  I guess that could create liability issues.

yahooyahoo said:

Heynj said:

This happened when Bank of A sold its building in New Providence a couple of years ago. Though it had always been “bank only” parking, with appropriate signage, for as long as anyone could recall, any time the bank wasn’t open, it was used as spillover for Prestige Diner. Then the new owner (building is still empty) put up new No Parking signs and hired a towing company to station a truck there and do immediate tows of violators. They call it predatory towing, I think. (As to the market vendor parking a truck in the Maplewood lot, there’s a good chance that farmer is renting that parking space.)

Why not make some money and charge for parking?  I guess that could create liability issues.

I mean, why not just not be a dick and who cares if people are parking in your lot when you're closed? Or not even open yet, like in this case? It's your right, sure, but it makes you a terrible neighbor and community member. (absolutely a different story if it's affecting your customers or employees while you're open, though.)

yahooyahoo said:

Heynj said:

This happened when Bank of A sold its building in New Providence a couple of years ago. Though it had always been “bank only” parking, with appropriate signage, for as long as anyone could recall, any time the bank wasn’t open, it was used as spillover for Prestige Diner. Then the new owner (building is still empty) put up new No Parking signs and hired a towing company to station a truck there and do immediate tows of violators. They call it predatory towing, I think. (As to the market vendor parking a truck in the Maplewood lot, there’s a good chance that farmer is renting that parking space.)

Why not make some money and charge for parking?  I guess that could create liability issues.

And if you really don't want people parking in your lot, get a couple of chains and lock it up when it's closed. 

kenboy said:

yahooyahoo said:

Heynj said:

This happened when Bank of A sold its building in New Providence a couple of years ago. Though it had always been “bank only” parking, with appropriate signage, for as long as anyone could recall, any time the bank wasn’t open, it was used as spillover for Prestige Diner. Then the new owner (building is still empty) put up new No Parking signs and hired a towing company to station a truck there and do immediate tows of violators. They call it predatory towing, I think. (As to the market vendor parking a truck in the Maplewood lot, there’s a good chance that farmer is renting that parking space.)

Why not make some money and charge for parking?  I guess that could create liability issues.

I mean, why not just not be a dick and who cares if people are parking in your lot when you're closed? Or not even open yet, like in this case? It's your right, sure, but it makes you a terrible neighbor and community member. (absolutely a different story if it's affecting your customers or employees while you're open, though.)

So someone is a terrible neighbor and community member if they don't let cars park for free on private property?  How many cars do you have in your driveway right now from your fellow neighbors?

Sure, the owner has every right not to let people park in his lot.  It would be a lot more neighborly, though, if he posted clearly - maybe a sign in the driveway when farmer's market is open, if he doesn't want to pay for a chain closure?  Also have his agent TELL people they can't park there, instead of waiting for them to park and then disabling their cars till a pretty steep ransom is paid.  Smells more like a money-making and FU project than simply protecting his property rights.

yahooyahoo said:

kenboy said:

yahooyahoo said:

Heynj said:

This happened when Bank of A sold its building in New Providence a couple of years ago. Though it had always been “bank only” parking, with appropriate signage, for as long as anyone could recall, any time the bank wasn’t open, it was used as spillover for Prestige Diner. Then the new owner (building is still empty) put up new No Parking signs and hired a towing company to station a truck there and do immediate tows of violators. They call it predatory towing, I think. (As to the market vendor parking a truck in the Maplewood lot, there’s a good chance that farmer is renting that parking space.)

Why not make some money and charge for parking?  I guess that could create liability issues.

I mean, why not just not be a dick and who cares if people are parking in your lot when you're closed? Or not even open yet, like in this case? It's your right, sure, but it makes you a terrible neighbor and community member. (absolutely a different story if it's affecting your customers or employees while you're open, though.)

So someone is a terrible neighbor and community member if they don't let cars park for free on private property?  How many cars do you have in your driveway right now from your fellow neighbors?

Pretty different scenario. We're not talking about a private home; we're talking about a bank parking lot when the bank is closed at night. The bank (or whatever business bought the bank) is being a **** neighbor and community member. 

I can understand the property owner’s frustration.  The last time I was at the farmers market, the entire portion of that parking lot adjacent to the market was taken up by vehicles parked for the farmers market.  This was during business hours and could easily have negatively affected the property owner’s business.  Those from out of the immediate area could reasonably have assumed that strip was designated parking for the farmer’s market.  There was a similar issue years ago with Papa John’s vehicles and customers parking in lot owned and used by an adjacent business. 

 A vibrant business district along that stretch of SA is a good thing; however it’s growth needs to be accompanied by infrastructure that supports that growth.   

joan_crystal said:

I can understand the property owner’s frustration.  The last time I was at the farmers market, the entire portion of that parking lot adjacent to the market was taken up by vehicles parked for the farmers market.  This was during business hours and could easily have negatively affected the property owner’s business.  Those from out of the immediate area could reasonably have assumed that strip was designated parking for the farmer’s market.  There was a similar issue years ago with Papa John’s vehicles and customers parking in lot owned and used by an adjacent business. 

 A vibrant business district along that stretch of SA is a good thing; however it’s growth needs to be accompanied by infrastructure that supports that growth.   

maybe the pool parking lot could be better for the farmers market. It’s just one day a week, and there’s enough space for people using the pool. 
when the farmers market was further down SA I don’t recall people getting ticketed. People see that strip of parking and assume it’s a public parking. Maybe it’s for the businesses and apartment building on the corner.

Jaytee said:

maybe the pool parking lot could be better for the farmers market. It’s just one day a week, and there’s enough space for people using the pool. 
when the farmers market was further down SA I don’t recall people getting ticketed. People see that strip of parking and assume it’s a public parking. Maybe it’s for the businesses and apartment building on the corner.

Most of the spaces in the pool parking lot are rented to employees and residents in the buildings across the street.  The rest are taken up by people attending the pool and people going to the library which is presently located in the OEM building.  Before the farmers market moved to Yale Corner, it was located in a parking lot and there was adequate parking in the portion not taken up by the market.