Extremely ANNOYED by traffic ticket I received in Manhattan: seeking opinion on whether I can reasonably appeal further??

To explain quickly, here's the scenario I outlined in my appeal, which was just ruled "not credible" by a NYC judge (though I can chose to appeal further). I'm not a lawyer, but it just seems incredibly unfair for them to have been pulling this deliberate "bait and switch", and then expect us to pay a fine when the supposed "letter of the law" isn't obeyed, a block away from where they were telling us to ignore the intersection (as described below), especially since they were obviously trying to "catch" us by turning their backs and waiting for us to move forward. I welcome any thoughts!:

Here's what I originally explained in my (initially unsuccessful) appeal:

"It was a painfully slow-moving day of traffic, and - a block before my ticket was issued - there was a NYPD Traffic Police officer appropriately directing cars to ignore the actual traffic lights and was using pylons and hand signals to let us know when it was ok to slowly cross the intersection. The very next block there was a group or young officers in yellow right before the intersection whom I therefore similarly  turned to again for guidance. However, this time they appeared to be ignoring the drivers (with their backs turned and talking amongst themselves), even when I rolled my window down and asked for guidance about what to do with the light about to turn green. Then - as soon as the light turned green and without the expected guidance - I drove ahead, and the traffic prevented me from crossing the intersection completely due to how slow things were moving. As soon as this happened, an officer ONLY THEN immediately approached my car (and seemingly every other car who did the same thing) to issue me a ticket. I was so upset that I documented the entire scene on film, as did the person in front of me and no doubt several others - it appeared to be an action that was not in keeping with the spirit of this intersection rule, given that at the intersection right before this we had been directed to IGNORE the light, and at this intersection we seem to have deliberately been given no guidance until it was too late, despite their presence, standing there. I therefore respectfully request that under the circumstances, and also taking into account my excellent driving record and respect for the law, that this ticket kindly be dismissed. NB. Attached is an image of the officers deliberately ignoring the drivers. As described above, they waited until we crossed the intersection on the green light and then issued us a ticket for “blocking traffic” (despite proactively guiding traffic only the block before)."

(again): thanks for any thoughts! Can I appeal? Is there a case in terms of them pulling this deliberate bait-and-switch (not just to me but to everyone at that intersection that day, with traffic moving excruciatingly slowly?) How is this fair?

- Alex

From what you wrote, you were "blocking the box" when you received the ticket.  This is a moving violation in NYC.  Conditions at one intersection may not have equaled conditions at the following intersection. Therefore, it would not be a valid assumption to conclude that the first officer's instruction governed anything further than the intersection where the first officer was directing traffic. Without specific direction from the officer(s) at the second intersection, you should not have entered the second intersection if you did not have sufficient space/time to clear the intersection before the light changed.  Therefore, from your description, I would conclude that the ticket was appropriate and the rationale you provided was not sufficient to fight the ticket.

Thanks for your thoughts. I guess what I’m wondering is: in situations where they are BLATANTLY doing a “bait and switch” ( deliberately turning their backs on drivers in extremely slow traffic, then immediately issuing tickets when they dare cross into the intersection on a green light but are stopped), is there any legal argument that the spirit for which the law was intended and created is not being honored? It just seems unfair that the city could get away with such a two-bit “con job”.

- Alex

Once the traffic officer turns his back, it means you don't move. The traffic officer is in control, not the lights. If you have very little experience driving in NYC, you can get into trouble easily. Just go to court and pay the fine, they might not tag the points on to your license. Yes blocking the box carries two points. Your best option is going to court.

I'm sorry you got dinged. Tickets = checks I hate to write.

If there is one thing I've learned driving in NYC, it's don't block the box.  

Sorry about the misleading operation by the police.

I'm not a lawyer but I don't think what you experienced at one intersection (officers guiding) would be a basis for expecting that same experience at the next intersection. At least in terms of being a legal defense.  

The problem is that in Manhattan a green light doesn't mean enter the intersection and hope for the best, it means enter the intersection if you can make it through. The officers were probably ignoring traffic because there wasn't anywhere to go, so they weren't waving cars forward. The only way you would have a defense against blocking the box was if the officers had waved you on.

Your written statement basically makes the case for the officer, and thus makes it pretty much a no-brainier for the judge. At this point I'd just pay it and try to put it behind you.

qrysdonnell said:
The problem is that in Manhattan a green light doesn't mean enter the intersection and hope for the best, it means enter the intersection if you can make it through. The officers were probably ignoring traffic because there wasn't anywhere to go, so they weren't waving cars forward. The only way you would have a defense against blocking the box was if the officers had waved you on.
Your written statement basically makes the case for the officer, and thus makes it pretty much a no-brainier for the judge. At this point I'd just pay it and try to put it behind you.

 This is how I understood the situation  as well.  

how much $ is the ticket for? The reason I ask is because I question whether it's even worth this level of aggravation.  Its very annoying, I agree....but not worth the stress IMO

It's possible that you are correct and this thing is an unfair rip-off. However, given that a judge has already said "no," I don't know how you reverse this without hiring a very experienced attorney who can represent you, which will cost far more than the fine and would require you to spend time to find the lawyer, and brief the lawyer. And then there still would be the possibility that it wouldn't go in your favor. I'd pay and move on.

You use the word "blatant" to describe bait and switch. I don't think that's plausible. You can't attribute reasons for their turned backs. I say you made an assumption that entering and blocking the intersection was OK, but it wasn't.

  even if what you say is credible, as the officers did not direct you to proceed, you have to follow the letter of the law which is not to block the intersection.  Just because you were told to ignore it at one intersection does not mean it applies to other intersections.

My argument would have been that I would be afraid it would trigger a road rage incident with the driver behind me who wanted me to proceed and I was afraid I could be killed by another irate driver.  I've had other drivers get very aggressive when I did things like yield to pedestrians, couldn't make a right turn because traffic was backed up, etc.

but the flip side is a driver on the other street could also get mad at blocking the box.

the behavior of the cops is something that needs to be addressed separately, unless they were discussing more serious business, they should have acknowledged you and advised  you to wait for it to clear....not stand there and socialize on taxpayer time.

it’s always a painfully slow traffic day in NYC. Take the train. And pay your ticket (you aren’t going to get anywhere fighting it)

Does anybody know what the MVC point ding is for out-of-State traffic tickets?

If it's as lenient as NYS's was some years ago (1Point) it might go some distance in easing alexj's angst.

alexj,

If it's a matter of principal, you'll do that which you believe is required; but going the lawyer route is going to be a lot more expensive now, than it would have been to contest the ticket.

If it's a matter of the $$$, call your insurance agent and pose a hypothetical, which is amazingly similar to your own situation, and ask what the $$$ impact would be for that hypothetical somebody, situated similarly to yourself.

In either case: take a deep breath, relax and repeat as necessary. It's no fun to get a ticket when justified; and far less so, when unjustified.

It's happened, nobody was hurt and there was no vehicle damage. Sometimes, Bad things happen to good people.

Be well & do good.

TomR

Hire a lawyer who appears in NYC traffic court frequently, and hope for the best. If your appearance is scheduled for the courtroom on Rector Street, I can recommend Jeffery Levine, whose fee was much less than a moving violation fine, points and the resulting insurance increase. His office is right downstairs.

how much is this ticket you are going to hire a lawyer to fight? I know you are annoyed but is it really worth the time, $ and effort?

Out of state tickets are 2 points.

In my experience handling traffic tickets for my employer, traffic lawyers cost $800. Worth it only if you are facing DWI or other license loss.

In my experience a traffic lawyer cost $200 and spared me a lot more. YMMV.

NY is not anything like NJ where you hire a lawyer to fight a ticket down in cost or points. That seems to be what most people do and it’s expected. Not the case in NY. 

j_r said:
In my experience a traffic lawyer cost $200 and spared me a lot more. YMMV.

 The difference may be between defending a corporation and an individual.

In any case, if you decide to hire a lawyer, ask what the intended defense will be. If the proposed approach doesn't make sense to you, walk away.  Do you have the option to plead guilty and pay the fine or does the summons require a court appearance?

Bad break, but par for the course.  I'd chalk it up to an expensive lesson in NYC driving.  I've gotten a ticket in similar situations by being auto-filmed in the box, when there was no other choice and it didn't appear to be a problem until I ended up there.  A few parking tickets have been avoided by mailing in photo evidence to fight the ticket on the NYC ticket website.  Good luck.

Thanks all for the comments (sorry - I was away or would have responded sooner). To answer some of your questions:

- the fine (if I pay) is $125

- as soon as they handed the ticket to me, I believe the very young officer said something to me like “no points will be penalized” (like their goal was just taking my money!)

- it was a DEFINITE bait and switch, which was why it was so infuriating. The person directly in front or me was also completely pissed off and took pictures afterwards and commented about it and we I’m sure weren’t the only ones. One of the reasons I posted here, in fact, was because I was curious if anyone else had ever experienced something like this. All the traffic officers seemed young and inexperienced and it felt like they were instructed to ignore the drivers, with backs turned (we were feet away from them) until the light turned green, and then to immediately turn around and give us a ticket.

- it was a jerky thing to do after we were all waiting in traffic already for what felt like 2 hours, and after giving us clear guidance in the intersection right before (but I acknowledge this isn’t a legal defense - I guess I was just curious if anyone could offer one).

- in the grand scheme of things it wasn’t nearly as unfair as many things that have happened to drivers by the police (!), and so I’m sure it’s advisible to let it go (I’m just amazed they can do something so deliberate and consistent - it seems petty and beneath the major’s office).

Thanks again. Still not sure what I’ll do but will probably just pay, even though if I could find any reason I’d fight it just on principle, not due to the amount of the fine (since it still obviously pisses me off ), and I wanted to draw attention to what they were doing.

- Alex

Curiosity -- where was the intersection?

Pulled into a no parking spot in the city to run into and out of a coffee shop. As we were pulling out of the spot we observed a policeman writing a ticket with his back to us as he was looking at the car in front of us. So we figured the summons was for that car in front of us. Weeks later we got the summons in the mail and it was doubled since we didn't pay it. Well that was because we were never handed the summons and were gone before policeman finished writing it. That was cute. We just paid it and forgot about it. Not worth the aggravation.

conandrob240 said:
NY is not anything like NJ where you hire a lawyer to fight a ticket down in cost or points. That seems to be what most people do and it’s expected. Not the case in NY. 

OP was asking about a ticket written Manhattan. Mine was for a moving violation in midtown Manhattan, for what it's worth. Case dismissed. My observation in court that day (and on another day on the same matter) was that hiring a lawyer for some traffic matters is not at all unusual -- in fact, it's routine. I can't speak to New Jersey procedure, because I've never been issued a ticket there. For many reasons, YMMV.

In NJ, you typically don't need a lawyer to plea down.  for example, ticket will be for 31 MPH over, but court will over a plea for 29 over (i don't remember the exact numbers, but a lessor speeding charge)..or something that is 4 points will be offered a 2 point deal, even without a lawyer.

Yes, but that's when you are guilty and seeking to lessen the charge and points, and prosecutors are willing to do that. And if often involves making a $ surcharge to the state which the local court cannot dismiss.

In the case, the OP is claiming that the police were acting wrongfully, and a judge has already ruled against him. That's going to take more than an appearance and a $200 ambulance chasing lawyer to turn around. For a $100 or so fine with no points, I'd pay it and move on.

apple44 said:
For a $100 or so fine with no points, I'd pay it and move on.

 You’re probably right :-(...

- Alex

not probably...