Explaining support for Trump
Pretty amazing that this is his first exposure to the story people are referring to most when they mention Solomon.
Summary: people who don't view things the way we do are evil, selfish, and want people to die. There is no principled view that differs from ours. They cannot be reasoned with because they are evil people. That's the reason they don't agree with us- it's not that our ideas suck. Evil. Here is one of the most famous stories in the Bible that I just heard to illustrate my point.
Yeah. He killed it.
That's why you got Trump.
If you have an explanation as to why his supporters tolerate in him stuff they wouldn't from others, I'd like to hear it. As an example, you could discuss the way he addressed the Boy Scouts.
Of course everyone knows that story. That's not the point. I think his interpretation has merit and he is not saying that anyone who views things differently is "evil". At least that's not how I took it.
Why not address his actual point. Trump's slogan is "Make America Great Again". Isn't that a call to go back in time? Why would his supporters want to go back in time? Isn't it in part because they feel that "their country" has been taken away? Haven't some of them actually expressed that?
Sorry kids- You're here clap clapping DL. Explain that. Do you agree with him, that trump voters would rather see "a dead half a country" because "if I can't have the country the way my father did it should die"? You ascribe genocidal motivation to people not voting for Hillary?
I didn't say a word in support of Trump.
I pointed out that that sort of buffoonery and cartoon villain making is why you got Trump. The right is so used to being called awful things by the left that they just don't care anymore.
"Sure sure sure. Hate everyone except my sister cousin. Yep yep, can't handle your scary truth-telling using a well know thousands year old story you just heard from a book you have no use for that you decided to bludgeon me with. Mmmhmm. Half the country dead. Of course, quite right. I'll be sure to change my ways, don't worry. You've really convinced me of the error of my sub-human ways. Mmmm. However can I thank you?"
There is a point where humans would rather see the other lose and be content with also losing if they don't stand to gain sufficiently. This is measured and proven. This is what Hughley is speaking of. I don't believe people want to see a dead half country, but it does appear that they do want to hurt others in response to their own hurts.
And I think the thing for them is that that is more important than anything else — their goal of getting America back, ‘cuz America is dead to them. The America that they know is dead to them. It’s interesting, ‘cuz I was trying to find a way to encapsulate all of this and I ran across this script’ . . . not that I read the Bible all the time, trust me, but this seemed to typify exactly my thoughts on this thing. It is from 1 Kings, Chapter 3, 16-18.
There were two prostitutes that came to the king and stood before him. One of them said,’pardon me my lord, this woman and I lived in the same house, and I had a baby while she was there with me. The 3rd day after my child was born, this woman also had a baby. We were alone, there was no one in the house but the two of us. During the night, this woman’s son died because she lay on him. So she got up in the middle of the night and took my son from my side while I, your servant, was asleep. She put him by her breast and she put her dead sone by my breast. The next morning, I got up to nurse my son and he was dead. But I looked at him closely in the morning light, and I saw that it wasn’t by son who I had born. The other woman said, “No, the living son is mine, the dead one is yours. The living one is min.” And they argued before the king. The king said: “This one says my son is alive and your son id dead, while the other one says, no, your son is dead and my son is alive. . . Bring me a sword.” So they brought the king a sword. He then gave the order: “Cut the living child into two and give half to one, and half to the other.”
The woman whose son. . . was alive, was deeply moved out of love for the son and said to the king. . . “please my lord, give her the living baby, do not kill him.” But the other said, “Neither I, nor you shall have him. Cut him in two.”
So there was one woman who loved that baby so much that she said I don’t care if you’re with me or not, as long as you’re alive. The joy of you being alive is what I’m after. It’ll hurt me that you’re not with me, but live, and be with someone else. The other woman said, no, I don’t want the baby, and I don’t want you to have it. I want us both to know the pain of loss. I want you to cut this baby in half. I want it to be dead to both of us.
(DLH) I submit to you that that is EXACTLY how Trump supporters feel. They would rather have a dead half-a-country than a whole one that exists without them.
Trump supporters are ones who want to take away rights from people who look or love differently from them, financial security away from those poorer than them, access to the country away if you didn't happen to have the random luck of being born here, health security away, etc.
It very well matches the feeling of being OK with making an unnecessary cut, to take something away, just so someone else will feel a loss... unnecessarily.
Jackson_Fusion said:
I pointed out that that sort of buffoonery and cartoon villain making is why you got Trump. The right is so used to being called awful things by the left that they just don't care anymore.
The word "liberal" is used by the Right as a pejorative and has been for over 30 years. You don't have to defend Trump, but try to explain to us ignoramuses the benefit Trump voters believed they would get from a Trump Administration? Were the people at Trump rallies all just ideological conservatives? Did they cheer Trump for talking about limited government or a free-market economy or did they cheer building a wall and deporting immigrants?
I have tried to come up with rational reasons for the enthusiastic support of Trump in many parts of this country. And stiginnit makes as much sense as any
ml1 said:
I have tried to come up with rational reasons for the enthusiastic support of Trump in many parts of this country. And stiginnit makes as much sense as any
+10. It's all about stigginit.
One thing to consider, and I said this in another thread, is has anyone heard a powerful message yet from Democrats? What can they offer to repair the ACA, or to move us closer to single payer? I hear nothing except head shaking about Trump.
a number of prominent Democrats including Schumer have been talking about single payer and other aspects of health care. But Trump's tweets get more coverage
They can't compel news organizations to cover them
FilmCarp said:
So then they are not unified or loud enough. I'm not hearing it.
how many Trump voters have you listened to to come up with this remarkable analysis?
also, you appear to be contradicting yourself in the space of two consecutive sentences:
1. I pointed out that that sort of buffoonery and cartoon villain making is why you got Trump.
2. The right is so used to being called awful things by the left that they just don't care anymore.
Those two assertions can't both be right. Either they don't care, or they care so much it forced them to vote for Trump.Jackson_Fusion said:
Sorry kids- You're here clap clapping DL. Explain that. Do you agree with him, that trump voters would rather see "a dead half a country" because "if I can't have the country the way my father did it should die"? You ascribe genocidal motivation to people not voting for Hillary?
I didn't say a word in support of Trump.
I pointed out that that sort of buffoonery and cartoon villain making is why you got Trump. The right is so used to being called awful things by the left that they just don't care anymore.
"Sure sure sure. Hate everyone except my sister cousin. Yep yep, can't handle your scary truth-telling using a well know thousands year old story you just heard from a book you have no use for that you decided to bludgeon me with. Mmmhmm. Half the country dead. Of course, quite right. I'll be sure to change my ways, don't worry. You've really convinced me of the error of my sub-human ways. Mmmm. However can I thank you?"
it's mischaracterization of what Hughley is saying. He's using a metaphor, a parable to explain his point. He doesn't mean that Trump supporters want half the country to be literally dead. I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation of a lot of the motivations behind many of Trump's supporters. They seem to be motivated as much by sticking it to immigrants, non-Christians, LGBT, and liberals in general as any real belief that Trump will make their own lives better.
Besides the fact they're despicable and odious, they also live in a special reality. Trump supporter believe, by 49 to 40% margin, that Trump won the popular vote.
According to a new poll, half of Trump’s voters say he won the popular vote. Forty-nine percent of those who said they supported Trump in November thought that he had won the popular vote in comparison to 40 percent of Trump voters who believed Hillary Clinton did. (Politico)
You may as well talk to a wall when trying to engage his supporters.
We have to admit that some voters enjoy being lied to and deceived. They enjoy living in an alternate realm where fake news is real and promises are broken. If DJT does not deliver coal jobs, job jobs, infrastructure and the rest, he will simply blame it on the GOP'ers who pushed back against him or the Democrats who he claims obstruct him. He was the only candidate with nothing to lose. He is more qualified at grifting and conniving and so far, he has succeeded. His appeal is Queens boy makes good. He forgot to add that his Dad gave him a million to start his life (money which he effed up). They know he was a horrid business man and a horrid husband. They. Don't. Care. He talks like them. He acts like them. He thinks like them. But he's not them. He wouldn't allow most of his voters onto his properties. Or date his eligible daughter.
Whenever the gauntlet finally falls, he will, as always, blame his downfall on others. It's hard to admit that you were duped and lied to. Many of his supporters will never admit to that because that means that one of your own hustled you and you weren't astute enough to catch it.
An America where 63 million citizens (or at least the vast majority of them) are unreachably out to hurt others. Is that the country we're talking about?
research shows that most people, regardless of their political affiliation, are "unreachable," meaning not persuaded by factual arguments. So yes, we can assume that the vast majority of Trump supporters are not reachable in any meaningful way.
it's kind of simplistic to say they want to "hurt" others. But the policies they want their elected leaders to pursue are about about making life harder for LGBT people, immigrants, and Muslims at the very least. So if you want to put it bluntly and simply, yes I suppose 40 or 50 million Americans would like to "hurt others."
In my opinion, it is irrational to assume that all those who voted for Trump (or for HRC for that matter) are a singular and unilateral block in terms of their reasons and level of enthusiasm. Each voter had his/her own set of issues, priorities, and motivation. Instead of speculating and/or ascribing broad-brush reasons as to why everyone who voted for Trump did so and whether they are "reachable", why not simply talk with some of them and ask? I have made an effort to do that and have heard several different reasons. Of course, some common themes emerged but each person prioritized those differently. And, while, some of those with whom I've spoken are dogmatic and unwavering in their support, others have expressed disappointment and frustration in regard to Trump's performance, thus far. Furthermore, I think it is important to recognize that there may be a difference between those who voted for Trump in November 2016 and those who continue to support him today. If the election were to be held today, of those with whom I've spoken, I believe that several would not repeat their vote. Perhaps that sentiment is reflected in the approx. 39% approval rate Trump has today.
@Norman_Bates, I'm entirely sure that he would not be re-elected if we held an election today, whoever his opponent is.
it's not so simplistic if you turn it around and ask them who is that they want to help. That would be pretty much themselves and no one else.
ml1 said:
research shows that most people, regardless of their political affiliation, are "unreachable," meaning not persuaded by factual arguments. So yes, we can assume that the vast majority of Trump supporters are not reachable in any meaningful way.
it's kind of simplistic to say they want to "hurt" others. But the policies they want their elected leaders to pursue are about about making life harder for LGBT people, immigrants, and Muslims at the very least. So if you want to put it bluntly and simply, yes I suppose 40 or 50 million Americans would like to "hurt others."
Norman_Bates said:
In my opinion, it is irrational to assume that all those who voted for Trump (or for HRC for that matter) are a singular and unilateral block in terms of their reasons and level of enthusiasm. Each voter had his/her own set of issues, priorities, and motivation. Instead of speculating and/or ascribing broad-brush reasons as to why everyone who voted for Trump did so and whether they are "reachable", why not simply talk with some of them and ask? I have made an effort to do that and have heard several different reasons. Of course, some common themes emerged but each person prioritized those differently. And, while, some of those with whom I've spoken are dogmatic and unwavering in their support, others have expressed disappointment and frustration in regard to Trump's performance, thus far. Furthermore, I think it is important to recognize that there may be a difference between those who voted for Trump in November 2016 and those who continue to support him today. If the election were to be held today, of those with whom I've spoken, I believe that several would not repeat their vote. Perhaps that sentiment is reflected in the approx. 39% approval rate Trump has today.
I'm using the polling data as a basis for my conclusions. There really aren't many Trump voters with buyers' remorse. Polls show something like 95% of them would vote for him again.
And it's a myth that all of us in places like SOMA or NYC are in a "bubble" and don't talk to Trump supporters. I've been part of a lot of social media conversations with people I grew up with, and a lot of them are die-hard Trump supporters. They're middle aged, white Christian men for the most part. And they believe that "elites" like us in the NY area and other liberal bastions are handing stuff to immigrants, black people and gay people, at the expense of people like them. They have an almost visceral anger toward BLM, LGBT rights activists, people who criticize the police, people who aren't gung ho for the military, immigrants, Muslims, and the list goes on. And the fact that they could cast a vote for a guy who sticks a rhetorical finger in the eyes of all those groups makes them happy.
I recognize that 63 million people aren't one monolithic block, and there are lots of reasons people voted for Trump. But for almost all of them, they are still on the Trump Train, whatever their reasons.
Trump's approval rating never, ever got much above 40% during the campaign, so that's a bad metric to gauge the depth of his support.
Of course Trump voters are not a singular block. Most of them are simply everyday Republicans who would rather die than ever vote for a Democrat. Given the awfulness of Trump however, that doesn't make these people any less despicable for their decision.
There is a pretty large population however who actively decided to vote for Trump - exemplified by the people who attend his rallies. These are the people who live in an alternate reality and are utterly wrong in their beliefs about major policy issues. These are the same people who are digging in their heels to maintain their support for Trump in spite of the obvious disaster of his Presidency.
To put it another way, most Republicans knew Trump was a con man and a jerk, but they're so tied into being a Republican that they had to vote for him. A smaller but significant percentage actually admire this piece of excrement.
Those people are dangerous.
Norman_Bates said:
In my opinion, it is irrational to assume that all those who voted for Trump (or for HRC for that matter) are a singular and unilateral block in terms of their reasons and level of enthusiasm. Each voter had his/her own set of issues, priorities, and motivation. Instead of speculating and/or ascribing broad-brush reasons as to why everyone who voted for Trump did so and whether they are "reachable", why not simply talk with some of them and ask? I have made an effort to do that and have heard several different reasons. Of course, some common themes emerged but each person prioritized those differently. And, while, some of those with whom I've spoken are dogmatic and unwavering in their support, others have expressed disappointment and frustration in regard to Trump's performance, thus far. Furthermore, I think it is important to recognize that there may be a difference between those who voted for Trump in November 2016 and those who continue to support him today. If the election were to be held today, of those with whom I've spoken, I believe that several would not repeat their vote. Perhaps that sentiment is reflected in the approx. 39% approval rate Trump has today.
When Trump fails to bring back coal and manufacturing jobs, many of his supporters will believe that he has done so.
drummerboy said:
Trump's approval rating never, ever got much above 40% during the campaign, so that's a bad metric to gauge the depth of his support.
Of course Trump voters are not a singular block. Most of them are simply everyday Republicans who would rather die than ever vote for a Democrat. Given the awfulness of Trump however, that doesn't make these people any less despicable for their decision.
There is a pretty large population however who actively decided to vote for Trump - exemplified by the people who attend his rallies. These are the people who live in an alternate reality and are utterly wrong in their beliefs about major policy issues. These are the same people who are digging in their heels to maintain their support for Trump in spite of the obvious disaster of his Presidency.
To put it another way, most Republicans knew Trump was a con man and a jerk, but they're so tied into being a Republican that they had to vote for him. A smaller but significant percentage actually admire this piece of excrement.
Those people are dangerous.
Yes, I agree folks who vote along party lines without thinking are dangerous
yeah, I didn't quite say that now, did I?
No, I didn't.
lord_pabulum said:
drummerboy said:
Trump's approval rating never, ever got much above 40% during the campaign, so that's a bad metric to gauge the depth of his support.
Of course Trump voters are not a singular block. Most of them are simply everyday Republicans who would rather die than ever vote for a Democrat. Given the awfulness of Trump however, that doesn't make these people any less despicable for their decision.
There is a pretty large population however who actively decided to vote for Trump - exemplified by the people who attend his rallies. These are the people who live in an alternate reality and are utterly wrong in their beliefs about major policy issues. These are the same people who are digging in their heels to maintain their support for Trump in spite of the obvious disaster of his Presidency.
To put it another way, most Republicans knew Trump was a con man and a jerk, but they're so tied into being a Republican that they had to vote for him. A smaller but significant percentage actually admire this piece of excrement.
Those people are dangerous.
Yes, I agree folks who vote along party lines without thinking are dangerous
Cogent: D.L. Hughley Offers Best Explanation Ever On Why You Can't Reach Trump Supporters