Epstein Commits Suicide While on Suicide Watch (Maybe?)

More on Epstein maybe being "intelligence."

And I thought Trump pushing the Clinton angle was bad. 

Does every a**hole on the internet have his own theory about who offed Epstein, which “just happens to” go along with his own personal conspiracy theories?

South_Mountaineer said:

And I thought Trump pushing the Clinton angle was bad. 

Does every a**hole on the internet have his own theory about who offed Epstein, which “just happens to” go along with his own personal conspiracy theories?

 Don't know who you are referring to, but we are all conspiracy nuts on this one because everyone, except maybe not you, does not believe that Epstein killed himself.  I think we all, except again for you, also agree that he had friends in very high places.  These high places seem to include a high percentage of billionaires on the planet and law enforcement and politicians and probably the intelligence community.  You don't go zipping around for years in a plane called the "Lolita Express" without powerful protection, not to mention a very light sentence for heinous crimes. 

So, who done it is going to be a major topic for now until maybe the end of time.  It's like Clue X 1000 meets Murder on the Orient Express.   I would not discount any of the people accused, including Clinton. Flight records show he flew on Epstein's plane 26 times.  Interesting that the detailed Daily Beast article does not mention him, perhaps because Chelsea sits on the board?  Of course, Trump will push that angle, but Clinton did some stupid stuff to incriminate himself.  Trump is also an associate and many others. Perhaps it was more than one that did poor Jeffery in?  The possibilities are endless.

There is some evidence that it was intelligence and that would explain a lot. Paul and I provided some of that above. But, by all means, lets' hear what everyone thinks.  How do you think Epstein left the world?

It’s possible to me that that prison was horrific enough and what was to come frightening enough for him that he paid someone to help him kill himself.

It is equally possible one of the MANY who were going to be exposed by him, had him killed.

Considering that this time Epstein knew he wasn't getting out with a slap on the wrist, he had already been denied house arrest, and even if he somehow ended up out of prison, the rest of his life would be hell... 

Sure, all possible alternatives should be explored. But I don't really expect his death was actually at the hands of someone else. Ariel Castro also committed suicide at the first opportunity he had in prison, and he had no 'connections' that might have done him in. 

@nan - I don’t argue that some rich influencer couldn’t have wanted to see Epstein dead to avoid embarrassment or worse.  But the Aaron Mate video uses some facts about Epstein to make him out to be some sort of intelligence asset. 

I was mainly reacting to this - - 

paulsurovell said:

More recently, this 3-part investigative report goes into Epstein's many connections to the powerful, including international intelligence agencies (the focus of Part 3).

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

Most of this won't be reported in the mainstream media out of concern over its own connections to the powerful and international intelligence agencies.

We're going to get a sanitized version of Whitney Webb's reporting.

Really? A shadowy Jewish cabal, as “exposed” in part 3?  And the last installment ends with this coming attraction for the next installment: "As will be revealed, despite the Clintons’ willingness to embrace corrupt dealings during the span of their political careers, their mostly friendly relationship with this network still saw them use the power of sexual blackmail to obtain certain policy decisions that were favorable to their personal and financial interests but not to the Clintons’ political reputation or agendas."

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

South_Mountaineer said:

@nan - I don’t argue that some rich influencer couldn’t have wanted to see Epstein dead to avoid embarrassment or worse.  But the Aaron Mate video uses some facts about Epstein to make him out to be some sort of intelligence asset. 

I was mainly reacting to this - - 

paulsurovell said:

More recently, this 3-part investigative report goes into Epstein's many connections to the powerful, including international intelligence agencies (the focus of Part 3).

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

Most of this won't be reported in the mainstream media out of concern over its own connections to the powerful and international intelligence agencies.

We're going to get a sanitized version of Whitney Webb's reporting.

Really? A shadowy Jewish cabal, as “exposed” in part 3?  And the last installment ends with this coming attraction for the next installment: "As will be revealed, despite the Clintons’ willingness to embrace corrupt dealings during the span of their political careers, their mostly friendly relationship with this network still saw them use the power of sexual blackmail to obtain certain policy decisions that were favorable to their personal and financial interests but not to the Clintons’ political reputation or agendas."

 I will be selling tin foil hats in the lobby during intermission.

cramer said:

"There should be — and almost certainly is — video of Epstein’s suicide at MCC. One hopes it is complete, conclusive, and secured."

https://twitter.com/PreetBharara/status/1160229624191827969  

btw - Tom Hayden was editor of the Michigan Daily when I was a freshman. 

 IF it wasn't a suicide, then no doubt the perps have thought of that and dealt with it already.

South_Mountaineer said:

@nan - I don’t argue that some rich influencer couldn’t have wanted to see Epstein dead to avoid embarrassment or worse.  But the Aaron Mate video uses some facts about Epstein to make him out to be some sort of intelligence asset. 

I was mainly reacting to this - - 

paulsurovell said:

More recently, this 3-part investigative report goes into Epstein's many connections to the powerful, including international intelligence agencies (the focus of Part 3).

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

Most of this won't be reported in the mainstream media out of concern over its own connections to the powerful and international intelligence agencies.

We're going to get a sanitized version of Whitney Webb's reporting.

Really? A shadowy Jewish cabal, as “exposed” in part 3?  And the last installment ends with this coming attraction for the next installment: "As will be revealed, despite the Clintons’ willingness to embrace corrupt dealings during the span of their political careers, their mostly friendly relationship with this network still saw them use the power of sexual blackmail to obtain certain policy decisions that were favorable to their personal and financial interests but not to the Clintons’ political reputation or agendas.

 Aaron Mate was extremely cautious in examining the evidence.  He did not say Epstein was an intelligence asset.  He highlighted the quote from Acosta--where he said he gave Epstein the light sentence because he was told that Epstein was "intelligence" and he was supposed to be hands-off. This is factual.  Mate, and the guy he interviewed said that if that were true, it would make the other odd things make sense.  They were not saying that it was true.

It is common for countries to entrap powerful people and then blackmail them to do what you want.  So, I would not dismiss theories that include that angle.

I can't comment on the mintpress articles because I have not finished reading them--I will when I do.

nan said:

 Aaron Mate was extremely cautious in examining the evidence.  He did not say Epstein was an intelligence asset.  He highlighted the quote from Acosta--where he said he gave Epstein the light sentence because he was told that Epstein was "intelligence" and he was supposed to be hands-off. This is factual.  

Only a very uncritical reader would read information from a single anonymous source, not knowing if the source had first-hand, second-hand, third-hand or whatever knowledge, and say, “This is factual.”

DaveSchmidt said:

Only a very uncritical reader would read information from a single anonymous source, not knowing if the source had first-hand, second-hand, third-hand or whatever knowledge, and say, “This is factual.”

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.  People are trying to figure out this mystery and they have to start somewhere.  Aaron Mate' started with this quote and it was discussed in a video.  He never came to any definite conclusions.  He just talked about hypothetical situations and what they would mean.  He did nothing wrong and it's an interesting video.  Maybe you should watch it before condemning it? 

nan said:

paulsurovell said:

...

It is common for countries to entrap powerful people and then blackmail
them to do what you want.

I have it on good authority that any talk of countries entrapping powerful people and blackmailing them is a hoax perpetuated by the corporate media.

nan said:

Maybe you should watch it before condemning it? 

I thought I was clear. I didn’t condemn the video. I condemned your uncritical declaration of something as factual.

I didn’t think Trump had anything to do with Epstein’s death, until Trump went on twitter and accused the Clintons of doing it with no evidence. Now I’m convinced he does.

DaveSchmidt said:

I thought I was clear. I didn’t condemn the video. I condemned your uncritical declaration of something as factual.

 The guy really said that Epstein was intelligence.  That's a fact.  They are starting their discussion from a factual basis.

nan said:

More on Epstein maybe being "intelligence."

Good interview.

South_Mountaineer said:

@nan - I don’t argue that some rich influencer couldn’t have wanted to see Epstein dead to avoid embarrassment or worse.  But the Aaron Mate video uses some facts about Epstein to make him out to be some sort of intelligence asset. 

I was mainly reacting to this - - 

paulsurovell said:

More recently, this 3-part investigative report goes into Epstein's many connections to the powerful, including international intelligence agencies (the focus of Part 3).

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

Most of this won't be reported in the mainstream media out of concern over its own connections to the powerful and international intelligence agencies.

We're going to get a sanitized version of Whitney Webb's reporting.

Really? A shadowy Jewish cabal, as “exposed” in part 3?  And the last installment ends with this coming attraction for the next installment: "As will be revealed, despite the Clintons’ willingness to embrace corrupt dealings during the span of their political careers, their mostly friendly relationship with this network still saw them use the power of sexual blackmail to obtain certain policy decisions that were favorable to their personal and financial interests but not to the Clintons’ political reputation or agendas.

 For the record, you omitted the preceding sentence of your quote:

Though this series has so far focused on the ties of this network to main Republican Party affiliates . . . 

ridski said:

I didn’t think Trump had anything to do with Epstein’s death, until Trump went on twitter and accused the Clintons of doing it with no evidence. Now I’m convinced he does.

The man is nothing if not an opportunist. 

nan said:

It is common for countries to entrap powerful people and then blackmail them to do what you want.  So, I would not dismiss theories that include that angle.

Exactly.  For instance, if it's alleged that an American real estate developer was entrapped in Russia and videoed cavorting with prostitutes, that should definitely be investigated.  Especially if the developer is in a position to be a powerful official in the government.

PVW said:

I have it on good authority that any talk of countries entrapping powerful people and blackmailing them is a hoax perpetuated by the corporate media.

Too subtle. 

nan said:

but we are all conspiracy nuts on this one because everyone, except maybe not you, does not believe that Epstein killed himself.  

 count me out too.  Until there's evidence presented that Epstein didn't commit suicide I have no reason to glom onto nutty conspiracy theories that he was murdered.  There were plenty of very compelling reasons that a guy like that would have committed suicide rather than face trial and the testimony of his accusers, with an almost certainty of spending the rest of his life in a maximum security prison.

If you're going to allege incompetence or malfeasance in not keeping a closer watch on Epstein, I'm with you there. 

Where am I on this?

If I read that an investigation revealed that someone had a role in enabling or causing Epstein's death, I would raise one eyebrow. Not both.

When I read early reports that said he was on a suicide watch I was much more suspicious. But more recent reports seem to support that the watch have been lifted.

nan said:

DaveSchmidt said:

I thought I was clear. I didn’t condemn the video. I condemned your uncritical declaration of something as factual.

 The guy really said that Epstein was intelligence.  That's a fact.  They are starting their discussion from a factual basis.

First, we don’t know it was a guy: Vicky Ward, being a pro, was careful not to reveal the gender of the former senior White House official who was her anonymous source. Second, the fact that someone said Acosta had said something doesn’t mean Acosta, in fact, said that.

That’s an important difference. I don’t know the level of reading comprehension you teach, but this is 101.

drummerboy said:

drummerboy said:

South_Mountaineer said:

@nan - I don’t argue that some rich influencer couldn’t have wanted to see Epstein dead to avoid embarrassment or worse.  But the Aaron Mate video uses some facts about Epstein to make him out to be some sort of intelligence asset. 

I was mainly reacting to this - - 

paulsurovell said:

More recently, this 3-part investigative report goes into Epstein's many connections to the powerful, including international intelligence agencies (the focus of Part 3).

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

Most of this won't be reported in the mainstream media out of concern over its own connections to the powerful and international intelligence agencies.

We're going to get a sanitized version of Whitney Webb's reporting.

Really? A shadowy Jewish cabal, as “exposed” in part 3?  And the last installment ends with this coming attraction for the next installment: "As will be revealed, despite the Clintons’ willingness to embrace corrupt dealings during the span of their political careers, their mostly friendly relationship with this network still saw them use the power of sexual blackmail to obtain certain policy decisions that were favorable to their personal and financial interests but not to the Clintons’ political reputation or agendas."

 I will be selling tin foil hats in the lobby during intermission.

nohero said:

nan said:

It is common for countries to entrap powerful people and then blackmail them to do what you want.  So, I would not dismiss theories that include that angle.

Exactly.  For instance, if it's alleged that an American real estate developer was entrapped in Russia and videoed cavorting with prostitutes, that should definitely be investigated.  Especially if the developer is in a position to be a powerful official in the government.

 Especially when the allegation is made by opposition research in a document filled with obvious falsehoods.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

nan said:

It is common for countries to entrap powerful people and then blackmail them to do what you want.  So, I would not dismiss theories that include that angle.

Exactly.  For instance, if it's alleged that an American real estate developer was entrapped in Russia and videoed cavorting with prostitutes, that should definitely be investigated.  Especially if the developer is in a position to be a powerful official in the government.

 Especially when the allegation is made by opposition research in a document filled with obvious falsehoods.

Any claim like that would be based on what turned up after investigation.  So a big "fail" for Paul's counter-argument.

DaveSchmidt said:

nan said:

DaveSchmidt said:

I thought I was clear. I didn’t condemn the video. I condemned your uncritical declaration of something as factual.

 The guy really said that Epstein was intelligence.  That's a fact.  They are starting their discussion from a factual basis.

First, we don’t know it was a guy: Vicky Ward, being a pro, was careful not to reveal the gender of the former senior White House official who was her anonymous source. Second, the fact that someone said Acosta had said something doesn’t mean Acosta, in fact, said that.

That’s an important difference. I don’t know the level of reading comprehension you teach, but this is 101.

 It's true that the statement is from an anonymous source. It's also true, as pointed out in Mate's interview that Acosta has not denied the statement. Which does not make the statement a fact but the lack of denial of a report in a prominent publication should be taken into account by those who have passed reading comprehension 101 when considering the credibility of the reported statement.

What's especially notable is the failure of the mainstream media to cite this report and pursue its potential implications.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

nan said:

It is common for countries to entrap powerful people and then blackmail them to do what you want.  So, I would not dismiss theories that include that angle.

Exactly.  For instance, if it's alleged that an American real estate developer was entrapped in Russia and videoed cavorting with prostitutes, that should definitely be investigated.  Especially if the developer is in a position to be a powerful official in the government.

 Especially when the allegation is made by opposition research in a document filled with obvious falsehoods.

Any claim like that would be based on what turned up after investigation.  So a big "fail" for Paul's counter-argument.

 Lots of allegations with lots of credible documentation of Epstein's involvement with intelligence agencies here:

https://www.mintpressnews.com/...

Presumably you support investigations by the media as well as the authorities.

paulsurovell said:

 Which does not make the statement a fact ...

That is all I’m saying. If you or nan or whoever wants to draw conclusions from what a single anonymous source said, or from what Acosta isn’t saying now, you won’t hear a peep out of me. (But if nan is going to continue to declare, “This is factual,” I might chime in again.)