Epstein Commits Suicide While on Suicide Watch (Maybe?)

proeasdf said:

If a person could control/influence a US attorney, then it would seem that controlling a medical examiner would be of less difficulty.   If am wrong tell me why.

the U.S. attorney was told to go light on the accused by a boss, not to lie and completely make the case go away.   

But you're claiming the city's chief ME would risk her entire career to falsify the autopsy of the accused, because someone in the "deep state" threatened her.  

All of these things are possible, but require a belief in a host of convoluted machinations.  When the simple explanation is that Epstein killed himself rather than face the testimony of his accusers and the rest of his life in prison.

most of those five("5") facts are questions.

Just "sayin"

nan said:

 Here are five to pick from:

drummerboy said:

10 to 1 this video uses a very tortured definition of "conspiracy theory".

Someone else will have to waste their time watching it though.

 I watched much of it. Some of it concerns historical events like a War between Sweden and Russia or The Gulf of Tonkin. But the middle one, the third of five takes the position that 9-11 was a false flag and not perpetrated by Al Queda. It's the only one of the five that doesn't end with press accounts confirming the truth of the "conspiracy theories. 

nan said:

 Russiagate.  Birtherism was minor. 

 Birtherism was a significant factor in boosting Trump to the WH.

As to what you call "Russiagate" you can choose which conspiracy you like. Either there was a conspiracy by Russians to interfere with the US Elections or there was a conspiracy by the Democrats, Christopher Steele and the FBI to create a false conspiracy.  

ml1 said:

proeasdf said:

If a person could control/influence a US attorney, then it would seem that controlling a medical examiner would be of less difficulty.   If am wrong tell me why.

the U.S. attorney was told to go light on the accused by a boss, not to lie and completely make the case go away.   

But you're claiming the city's chief ME would risk her entire career to falsify the autopsy of the accused, because someone in the "deep state" threatened her.  

All of these things are possible, but require a belief in a host of convoluted machinations.  When the simple explanation is that Epstein killed himself rather than face the testimony of his accusers and the rest of his life in prison.

 I did NOT say: "the city's chief ME would risk her entire career to falsify the autopsy of the accused, because someone in the "deep state" threatened her."

Perhaps there were alternative conclusions that the ME could draw from the evidence.  You attempt to make it sound as if the JE evidence was conclusive as to the cause of death (fracture of the hyoid bone is NEITHER conclusive of: i.) suicide hanging, nor ii.) strangulation by third party).

Can we agree that further investigation is required (and it appears that the IG is engaged in such investigation)?

nan said:

 I can see you think I'm not being consistent, but how about you just respond to the jist of what I'm saying which is that Ken Dilanian has a known connection to the CIA and so does the media and you should be skeptical about both (and the media may have been trying to minimize Dilanian's contributions to a story because of his history). 

That might be better than just trying to catch me in some contextual/semantical trap.  Sometimes I feel like I'm the roadrunner to your Willy Coyote.  

I’ve already responded by describing Dilanian’s “connection” and noting how replacing his name in a tweet did nothing to minimize his starring role in the report that was attached to it. (I also gave a couple of plausible explanations for the replacement.)

Now you’ll have to pardon me. My latest order from Acme is ready for pickup.

nan said:

  I just don't know who to believe and there is no trustworthy source. 

 It is also possible that all the charges against Epstein were just part of a conspiracy. Why do the two poster boys for serious sexual misconduct have such obvious Jewish names: Epstein and Weinstein.

Is it just to distract from the scandal of the widespread sexual abuse by the Roman Catholic Clergy?

Remember when they decided to set up Bill Clinton they gave the principal player a very Jewish sounding name.

Anything is possible

nan said:

ml1 said:

 In this instance, it's because the conspiracy theories are in fact ridiculous.

Yeah, a guy who for years openly ran a plane called "The Lolita Express" down to an island filled with high profile celebrities and underage girls could not possibly have connections to intelligence communities or the mafia or other powerful figures who might not want him to testify against them.   Just obvious nonsense. Thank you for clearing that up.

 Why do you believe that? It sounds like something out of a James Bond story.

An Island filled with celebrities who are actually paedophiles and a guy with a special plane to carry young girls to the Island?

Give me a break!

nan said:

 I don't think he was strangled either-in fact I asked about that on MOL-but it's not ridiculous to think they somehow caused or helped his death.  As I keep saying, we don't know enough to even begin to determine what is ridiculous in this case.  It's ridiculous that he could do what he did for so long while surrounded by the type of people he catered to.  His previous jail sentence also ridiculous. 

Here's what I'm watching now (recent article from Whitney Webb if you don't want to watch the video:   https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy-story-jeffrey-epstein-scandal/261172/)

:  

 Why a picture of Roy Cohn?

Why is the first three minutes does it mention Meyer Lansky and Mosad?

nan said:

 Until the last decade, I thought the simplest explanation of JFK's murder was that some evil guy shot him and only strange people wasted their time on convoluted theories.  I thought the people following what seemed like crazy theories about grassy knolls and secret plots were just sucked into tinfoil land. Now, based on more reading, I see that I was the naive one and that the more complicated explanation is more complicated than I even thought and is more likely to be true.  

Did Ted Cruz's father have something to do with it? 

To which of the various theories do you subscribe?

nan said:

 ok, so Gabbard and Sanders admitting that there was Russian interference is wrong?  Sorry - can't watch the video at the moment - please let me know what they concluded,

proeasdf said:

 I did NOT say: "the city's chief ME would risk her entire career to falsify the autopsy of the accused, because someone in the "deep state" threatened her."

Perhaps there were alternative conclusions that the ME could draw from the evidence.  You attempt to make it sound as if the JE evidence was conclusive as to the cause of death (fracture of the hyoid bone is NEITHER conclusive of: i.) suicide hanging, nor ii.) strangulation by third party).

Can we agree that further investigation is required (and it appears that the IG is engaged in such investigation)?

a full autopsy was done and the ME's conclusion was suicide by hanging.  With no equivocation.  An investigation into how he was not prevented from committing suicide is worthy of investigation. An investigation into whether he was "murdered"?  No.

ml1 said:

proeasdf said:

 I did NOT say: "the city's chief ME would risk her entire career to falsify the autopsy of the accused, because someone in the "deep state" threatened her."

Perhaps there were alternative conclusions that the ME could draw from the evidence.  You attempt to make it sound as if the JE evidence was conclusive as to the cause of death (fracture of the hyoid bone is NEITHER conclusive of: i.) suicide hanging, nor ii.) strangulation by third party).

Can we agree that further investigation is required (and it appears that the IG is engaged in such investigation)?

 no.  

a full autopsy was done and the ME's conclusion was suicide by hanging.  With no equivocation.

Sounds like you are opposed to the IG's investigation into the JE "suicide."

Why would we NOT subject the medical examiner's process, analysis and conclusion to review/investigation?

proeasdf said:

Sounds like you are opposed to the IG's investigation into the JE "suicide."

Why would we NOT subject the medical examiner's process, analysis and conclusion to review/investigation?

I'm not opposed to the investigation.  The government isn't doubting that Epstein committed suicide.  They are investigating how the prison officials didn't act to prevent it.

No foul play is suspected in Epstein's death, a federal official told CNN. Authorities believe Epstein hanged himself, a law enforcement source told CNN.  
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/10/politics/bill-barr-jeffrey-epstein-justice-department-investigation/index.html

This is not the first time I've had a discussion with you in which you believe the inability to prove a negative is suspicious.  You haven't proven to me that you posts aren't created by a Russian bot, so perhaps I should be suspicious of the reasons for your specious arguments.

STANV said:

 Birtherism was a significant factor in boosting Trump to the WH.

As to what you call "Russiagate" you can choose which conspiracy you like. Either there was a conspiracy by Russians to interfere with the US Elections or there was a conspiracy by the Democrats, Christopher Steele and the FBI to create a false conspiracy.  

 You asked for two conspiracies that came true, I gave you five to pick from.  I don't think Birtherisim got Trump elected.  I think the Dems did that.

ml1 said:

so you believe the NYC medical examiner is being controlled by the CIA in order to testify that the cause of death was strangulation?  Or do you think that he was killed by some other means, and then someone went into his cell to inflict injuries consistent with strangulation that the ME didn't notice were not the cause of death?

This is why the conspiracy theories ARE ridiculous.  It requires belief in a convoluted set of circumstances, or it requires that the CIA controls even the municipal employees of the city of New York.  Or both.

 I don't know how he died but I asked on MOL if it was possible if someone made him put a noose around his neck and hang himself, it would be classified "suicide."   Bottom line is, I don't know how he died.

The CIA takes out leaders of foreign countries and installs puppet governments on a regular basis.  They can get a guard in a New York City jail to kill someone.    If they want.

I don't know if that's what they wanted.  I don't think we will ever know for sure how Epstein died.  I think it would be more important to know why he lived and what he was really doing and who he was serving.  That would be useful information, because regardless of how he died, Epstein is not useful to anyone anymore.

nan said:

 I don't know how he died but I asked on MOL if it was possible if someone made him put a noose around his neck and hang himself, it would be classified "suicide."   Bottom line is, I don't know how he died.

The CIA takes out leaders of foreign countries and installs puppet governments on a regular basis.  They can get a guard in a New York City jail to kill someone.    If they want.

I don't know if that's what they wanted.  I don't think we will ever know for sure how Epstein died.  I think it would be more important to know why he lived and what he was really doing and who he was serving.  That would be useful information, because regardless of how he died, Epstein is not useful to anyone anymore.

 how do you know anything with 100% assurance? How do you know Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile and human trafficker with powerful friends? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he was falsely accused. 

STANV said:

 Why a picture of Roy Cohn?

Why is the first three minutes does it mention Meyer Lansky and Mosad?

 OK, I think I posted the wrong link to the written material discussed in the video interview with the author. You should either watch the video all the way through or read this link, which I think Paul posted before:

Hidden in Plain Sight: The Shocking Origins of the Jeffrey Epstein Case

Epstein is only the latest incarnation of a much older, more extensive and sophisticated operation that offers a frightening window into how deeply tied the U.S. government is to the modern-day equivalents of organized crime.

STANV said:

Did Ted Cruz's father have something to do with it? 

To which of the various theories do you subscribe?

 No, Ted Cruz's father is innocent.  I think the CIA did it, specifically Allan Dulles, who led the investigation inquiries.  

ml1 said:

 how do you know anything with 100% assurance? How do you know Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile and human trafficker with powerful friends? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he was falsely accused. 

 No, I think there is plenty of photo evidence and other evidence from many sources to establish basic things.  STANV also mentioned this possibility.   Are there really people who think Epstein was framed? He was found guilty in 2008, even if he got the wrist slap, so that gives some basic things to work with.  And the testimony of the woman who accused him and his gal pal was also convincing.  

jamie said:

 ok, so Gabbard and Sanders admitting that there was Russian interference is wrong?  Sorry - can't watch the video at the moment - please let me know what they concluded,

Aaron Mate punches holes in the Russigate conspiracy nut (who advised Obama) and they agree to disagree.

nan said:

 No, I think there is plenty of photo evidence and other evidence from many sources to establish basic things.  STANV also mentioned this possibility.   Are there really people who think Epstein was framed? He was found guilty in 2008, even if he got the wrist slap, so that gives some basic things to work with.  And the testimony of the woman who accused him and his gal pal was also convincing.  

 how do you know the photos are real? How do you know the evidence against him was real? How do you know it wasn't fabricated to take down people like Bill Clinton?

ml1 said:

 how do you know the photos are real? How do you know the evidence against him was real? How do you know it wasn't fabricated to take down people like Bill Clinton?

The "how do you know water is really wet?" strategy is not going to work here.  We have some basic facts to work from.

nan said:

The "how do you know water is really wet?" strategy is not going to work here.  We have some basic facts to work from.

 you have basic facts reported by mainstream media about Epstein's guilt that you believe. And yet you disbelieve the reports of his suicide from the same sources. 

You have chosen to believe what to believe and disbelieve. Your narrative doesn't hold together without selectively choosing different parts of it that suit your theory.  But you don't get to pick and choose only the parts of the reporting that fit your conspiracy theory. 

ml1 said:

 you have basic facts reported by mainstream media about Epstein's guilt that you believe. And yet you disbelieve the reports of his suicide from the same sources. 

You have chosen to believe what to believe and disbelieve. Your narrative doesn't hold together unless you choose to believe or disbelieve all of it. You don't get to pick and choose only the parts of the reporting that fit your conspiracy theory. 

I keep telling you over and over that I do not know what happened.   I don't believe anything yet about Epstein's suicide and who he was really working for. I do lean more, based on possible motivations, towards the not suicide camp, but who knows. I do accept that he ran some type of criminal operation, and probably blackmail was involved. But, as I said, I'm more interested in finding out who bankrolled him than why he died.  That is more useful information at this point.

nan said:

I keep telling you over and over that I do not know what happened.   I don't believe anything yet about Epstein's suicide and who he was really working for. I do lean more, based on possible motivations, towards the not suicide camp, but who knows. I do accept that he ran some type of criminal operation, and probably blackmail was involved. But, as I said, I'm more interested in finding out who bankrolled him than why he died.  That is more useful information at this point.

 then why are you spending so much effort arguing that Epstein didn't commit suicide?

nan said:

I don't know if that's what they wanted.  I don't think we will ever know for sure how Epstein died.  I think it would be more important to know why he lived and what he was really doing and who he was serving.  That would be useful information, because regardless of how he died, Epstein is not useful to anyone anymore.

 Well, the MCC has long been a place where defendants (who have not yet been convicted of any crime!) face horrifying conditions, where inmates suffer poor mental health and suicide too frequent. Many of those held at MCC are poor, or people of color, or foreign nationals, or otherwise people with little power. With the death of a rich, well-connected man at the MCC, there was a chance all this might have finally gotten some real scrutiny. Instead, we're off chasing conspiracies. So I'd argue that Epstein continues to be useful to the powerful even in death.

ETA -- who are the conspiracy theories serving?

ml1 said:

 then why are you spending so much effort arguing that Epstein didn't commit suicide?

 Because we don't know and I'm skeptical. 

nan said:

 Because we don't know and I'm skeptical. 

 we know with as much certainty as we know that he had powerful friends. We actually know with less certainty that he was connected with intelligence and yet you believe that with near complete certainty. 

Your arguments, taken as a whole are nonsensical. 

nan said:

ml1 said:

 then why are you spending so much effort arguing that Epstein didn't commit suicide?

 Because we don't know and I'm skeptical. 

Other than a video of Epstein actually hanging himself in his cell (there isn't one - no cameras were aimed into his cell) what would convince you that Epstein committed suicide?   

Here's a question -- if powerful deep state actors didn't want Epstein talking, why was he arrested in the first place? Why not get word to him to stay in Europe?

Why allow him to be arrested and then have him strangled in prison? It makes absolutely no sense.