After growing up in the Northeast, I was surprised how easily "y'all" became second nature when I went to college in North Carolina, where I remained for a few years afterward. "You guys" has long been re-ingrained in me, difficult to resist even in situations like those PVW mentioned. Every once in a while a "y'all" will slip out again.
PVW: In my edition, that’s all caught up in the sense you mention. The first, original sense was in the sense of ‘guide’ - and is still used when you hear people using the term ‘guy ropes’. As it’s a much older term, and it’s occupational, it tended to be linked with males. ETA: sorry! I went back to check something, and in fact I melded two definitions
The first, and oldest, definition given is from the Old French and means a guide, conductor or leader. (Guie) The second definition given is from the Lower Germanic, and means guide but in the sense now used as in guy-ropes, pulley (girap, or gyerope). The definitions I cited first are listed under the 3rd meaning of ‘guy’/alternative listing
There’s also ‘to be dressed as a trollope’, the ME verb ‘to guide’, the chiefly nautical verb from the 1700s meaning ‘to tie’ or ‘to fasten’, and the verb from 1851 meaning ‘to carry around an effigy, to dress an effigy, to exhibit an object of ridicule’.
Guze (giūz), from 1562, unknown origin, is a roundelle of sanguine tint - which I find quite interesting in light of current discussions.
It’s a long entry, nearly a third of a foolscap column (or slightly larger).
Re modern use of ‘you guys/guys’ as genderless collective term, you might find this article interesting. It’s from the Australian ABC and includes responses from the editors of the Macquarie Dictionary, linguists from University of Melbourne and University of Tasmania, and others. There’s also a list of suggested alternatives. https://www.abc.net.au/everyday/is-it-time-to-stop-saying-you-guys-at-work/10240970
That's what I'm talkin' about! You all just 'leveled up' this thread, thanks. I struggle to this day with 'You Guys', as I think it is just plain wrong and a lazy use of language that no one really thinks about too much (except everyone here, of course).
History? Yeah, that is a touchy one too, as without 'her' there would not be 'his'. Plus, as a huge fan of Zinn, we have a lot to be ashamed of in our 'his' story (Last five years and yesterday included). As opposed to learning from our mistakes.........never mind, I was about to get on a soapbox and thought better of it. I'm all for more of 'her' story, but not so much if it means rewriting the past to suit the present day (how's that for being politically correct?).
So ‘history’ has nothing to do with gender, but comes to us from Middle English by way of Greek via Latin - I won’t try to transliterate the Greek as I can’t read all the small letters well enough just now, however it means ‘learning (or knowing) by inquiry’ or learning by asking. The Latin is ‘historia’. There is no connection with male stories or traditions, and no connection with hysteria. There’s over a full foolscap page (almost 4 columns) of words beginning with His, including Hispanic, Histology, and Histrionism. Once you know these definitions you’d agree they’re not gendered and don’t need changing!
Further, you might all be amused to know that ‘his’ once was also an obsolete form of ‘is’, and hisis was once used as the opposite of possessive pronoun to ‘her’.
Sometimes it is a question of perception rather than origin. When I was in college in the 1960s, words like history and human were being challenged by feminists as being gender specific even if that was never the intent. Those familiar with the Talmud will know that chicken was considered meat, not because chickens lactate (they don't) but because cooked chicken looked like cooked veal. Thus chicken parm remains not kosher to this day.
Joan, I didn’t know about the kashrut history of chicken (I know the background of fish kashrut) so that was interesting. Our Shulchan Aruch didn’t seem to back up that interpretation (but it’s in French and I’m rusty) so I looked up Chabad:
It’s still a strange turn of phrase, isn’t it? I’m too busy with the last stages of Passover prep to do much research, but I keep hearing my Mum muttering that as I read these posts
It’s still a strange turn of phrase, isn’t it? I’m too busy with the last stages of Passover prep to do much research, but I keep hearing my Mum muttering that as I read these posts
It might be a European version, Joanne, because the one I know is the “You could’ve knocked me over with a feather” version.
Mind you, I tend to use the Australian variation, which I won't publish here, for fear of creating offence. If anyone wants to know what it is, send me a message.
Sometimes it is a question of perception rather than origin. When I was in college in the 1960s, words like history and human were being challenged by feminists as being gender specific even if that was never the intent. Those familiar with the Talmud will know that chicken was considered meat, not because chickens lactate (they don't) but because cooked chicken looked like cooked veal. Thus chicken parm remains not kosher to this day.
History is derived from Ancient Greek, "to inquire."
It’s still a strange turn of phrase, isn’t it? I’m too busy with the last stages of Passover prep to do much research, but I keep hearing my Mum muttering that as I read these posts
I think I'm more interested now on why your mom keeps saying it, as opposed to finding out the origins of that particular phrase. I would throw 'Tickle Me Pink' and 'Green with Envy' in there. To a blind person, neither of these idioms make any sense. Also, how cruel is 'Music to my ears' to a deaf person? Just sayin'
Here's a good one, and I'm bringing Urban Dictionary's take on it just because they are more wrong than right but hilarious in general: In for a penny, in for a pound
!"If you're going to take a risk at all, you might as well make it a big risk."
From an old British expression (thus "pound" instead of "dollar"); the original reference was probably to theft (though this is not certain), saying that being arrested ("taken in") for stealing a small amount is just as bad as for a large amount, so you may as well steal a lot and hope to get away with it.
An equivalent expression is, "As well hanged for a sheep as a lamb", where it's implied that you are stealing the animal. If the punishment for failure is the same, you may as well try for the largest possible reward.
The phrase is often misused with reference to a punishment that is out of proportion to a crime, but this is not the actual meaning."I could get fired just for talking to you. Well... in for a penny, in for a pound! Come on in."
Here's a good one, and I'm bringing Urban Dictionary's take on it just because they are more wrong than right but hilarious in general: In for a penny, in for a pound
At least I know what "pennies" and "pounds" are. When books go off into talk of shillings, pence, crowns, quids, and guineas I have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. And how heavy is a stone, how far a furlough, how deep a fathom?
Somewhere I have a good reference book that sources sayings like these - I’ll try to find it in the next few days, when things have settled down a bit. I suspect that Mum may have mangled her surprised version of ‘blow me down...’ with something said in French; a quick online search for English adages did return references for her version and everyone else’s, though, so it’s also possible that elderly former neighbours of ours who helped her become fluent in English taught her a less common/older version of it. (She’s been gone now over 23 years however we were very close and this time of year is one when I really miss her)
Now you have me curious - without Jamie dinging you, can you share her mangled version? One of the amazing things I'm learning from this thread is how many sayings that originated 'across the ocean' are used here in the States as though we created them. I'm sure there are many idioms we did create here, but more are used that have their origins somewhere else because America is people from other places mostly.
You don't hear people quoting Native American sayings, but I use 'In A NY Minute' all the time (I even sing the song in my head as I type this).
Here's a good one, and I'm bringing Urban Dictionary's take on it just because they are more wrong than right but hilarious in general: In for a penny, in for a pound
At least I know what "pennies" and "pounds" are. When books go off into talk of shillings, pence, crowns, quids, and guineas I have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. And how heavy is a stone, how far a furlough, how deep a fathom?
a stone is fourteen pounds.
I believe that the shilling was 1/12 of a pound in the old British monetary system. And I think a quid is slang for a pound (sort of like "buck" in place of dollar). And the pence is now 1/100th of a pound, but back in the old days I believe it was 1/96th of a pound (12 shillings to the pound, 8 pence to the shilling).
The thing that would throw me sometimes in reading about Britain in the 1950s and 1960s was the value of their money at the time. One hundred pounds in the early '60s was a lot of money. I remember reading that John Lennon bought a country estate for 100,000 pounds in the mid-sixties. The difference in value between then and now is so stark that a recent Beatles biography I read had a page in the front that "translated" British money values from the late '50s and '60s into today's value in pounds and US dollars. Otherwise the "fortunes" that the band made in the '60s would not be as apparent to most modern readers.
That is a very cool association. I can't even begin to imagine what those 'lads' were making back then, but the world was their oyster, unlike another band that rose to stardom in their wake. Their peers were not happy that they had to work harder to make less money, I'll bet.
As far as the pound correlation, Pennies from Heaven and Make a Buck are the only ones that come to mind in terms of our currency. I'm sure we could lis quite a few money idioms that just don't 'cut the mustard' these days (heh heh heh, like how I did that?).
By the way, there's a new Brian Regan special on Netflix that goes into a lot of idioms that you'd probably find very enjoyable. Regan never curses, so you can watch it with your family, too. It's very funny.
By the way, there's a new Brian Regan special on Netflix that goes into a lot of idioms that you'd probably find very enjoyable. Regan never curses, so you can watch it with your family, too. It's very funny.
Thanks for the tip, had one on my list already that I watched, just added the other two. My 13 daughters favorite word is the F bomb, so no worries on Family Friendly fair. That reminds me of another idiom - Where do we think 'Drop the Bomb' and 'Bombshell' came from? I bet they are all WWI or II.
The one I like is "Watch your Ps & Qs." The one I don't understand is "It's the bee's knees." I still don't get it even after looking it up.
Bees don't have knees, right? Ps and Qs is probably something from Strunk & White. How about Crossing your Ts and Dotting your 'I's? That assumes you actually write anything these days. Raise your hands if you have not written even your signature in a long time.
How about the Cats Meow? There is one just begging for a recall. What if you hate cats? What does that do for the Song My Favorite things? When the Dog Barks? When the bee stings? Why would that be anyone's favorite thing? Along those lines, You are 'all that and a bag of chips' is probably how I'm feeling after three pages of this thread. Thank you all for keeping it going.
After growing up in the Northeast, I was surprised how easily "y'all" became second nature when I went to college in North Carolina, where I remained for a few years afterward. "You guys" has long been re-ingrained in me, difficult to resist even in situations like those PVW mentioned. Every once in a while a "y'all" will slip out again.