Are You Now or Have You Ever ...?

LOST

In the 1950s people lost jobs because they had attended a Communist Party or Party related group meeting in the 20s or 30s.

Do we now have a situation where a person can lose his job for having made an improper sexual remark or pass 20 years ago?


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ml1


LOST said:

In the 1950s people lost jobs because they had attended a Communist Party or Party related group meeting in the 20s or 30s.

Do we now have a situation where a person can lose his job for having made an improper sexual remark or pass 20 years ago?

yes.  but a couple of things. It isn't, and never has been illegal to be a Communist.  Sexual assault and sexual harassment are criminal or civil transgressions.

And no one is going to lose their job over a simple improper remark.  It's going to have to be something that rose to the level of creating a hostile environment.


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conandrob240

is this what you think is happening? That this was one passing comment made and then poof, job lost? The cases that have come forward show these men to have made far more than a passing remark. Most are being accused of sexual assault.


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LOST

Al Franken kissed a woman who didn't want to be kissed and took a silly picture 10 years ago. 

We do not yet know why Lopate or Schwartz have been put on leave. In the meantime Trump remains as President and the GOP is actively backing Moore.

And while we discuss this and Russia and Jerusalem 

 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/homeless-veterans-benefits-trump-207781


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LOST


ml1 said:



 It isn't, and never has been illegal to be a Communist. 

It is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954


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ml1


LOST said:

Al Franken kissed a woman who didn't want to be kissed and took a silly picture 10 years ago. 

We do not yet know why Lopate or Schwartz have been put on leave. In the meantime Trump remains as President and the GOP is actively backing Moore.

And while we discuss this and Russia and Jerusalem 

 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/homeless-veterans-benefits-trump-207781

Franken is also accused of forcibly kissing at least one other woman, and groping several others during photo opps.  If the accusations are true, and I don't think he's denying them, it's a pattern of behavior.  Is it fair that he's forced to resign when Trump is still in office, and Moore will soon be in the Senate?  No, but it's not as though Franken is innocent, so the fact that others are going to skate by doesn't work as an excuse for him.


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conandrob240

No, Al Franken is a predator. Dig a little deeper.


LOST said:

Al Franken kissed a woman who didn't want to be kissed and took a silly picture 10 years ago. 

We do not yet know why Lopate or Schwartz have been put on leave. In the meantime Trump remains as President and the GOP is actively backing Moore.

And while we discuss this and Russia and Jerusalem 

 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/homeless-veterans-benefits-trump-207781



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ml1


LOST said:



ml1 said:



 It isn't, and never has been illegal to be a Communist. 

It is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954

according to your own citation, it was never enforced:

However, the Supreme Court of the United States has not ruled on the act's constitutionality. Despite that, no administration has tried to enforce it. The provisions of the act "outlawing" the party have not been repealed. Nevertheless, the Communist Party of the USA continues to exist in the 21st century.



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DaveSchmidt

As someone whose marriage began with an office romance nearly 30 years ago, I can relate to this Slate article: The Upside of Office Flirtation? I’m Living It

And here’s a rebuke via ThinkProgress.


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conandrob240

diminishing what Franken or Lauer or Weinstein did by calling it “office flirtation” is part of the problem.




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DaveSchmidt

Anybody who reads the article should be able to see that the writer is making no such connection.


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conandrob240

by posting it in a thread about sexual predators and abusers you are making the connection and diminishing the crimes.


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DaveSchmidt


LOST said:

Do we now have a situation where a person can lose his job for having made an improper sexual remark or pass 20 years ago?
conandrob240 said:

by posting it in a thread about sexual predators and abusers you are making the connection and diminishing the crimes.

What this thread is about may be subject to debate.

In any case, your position is reflected in the other article I posted.


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drummerboy

Putting Franken with Lauer and Weinstein in the same sentence is the problem.


conandrob240 said:

diminishing what Franken or Lauer or Weinstein did by calling it “office flirtation” is part of the problem.



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LOST


ml1 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954

according to your own citation, it was never enforced:


However, the Supreme Court of the United States has not ruled on the act's constitutionality. Despite that, no administration has tried to enforce it. The provisions of the act "outlawing" the party have not been repealed. Nevertheless, the Communist Party of the USA continues to exist in the 21st century.

It is on the books.

When was anyone prosecuted criminally for "groping" as it is alleged Franken did?


ml1 said:



LOST said:

Al Franken kissed a woman who didn't want to be kissed and took a silly picture 10 years ago. 

We do not yet know why Lopate or Schwartz have been put on leave. In the meantime Trump remains as President and the GOP is actively backing Moore.

And while we discuss this and Russia and Jerusalem 

 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/homeless-veterans-benefits-trump-207781

Franken is also accused of forcibly kissing at least one other woman, and groping several others during photo opps.  If the accusations are true, and I don't think he's denying them, it's a pattern of behavior.  Is it fair that he's forced to resign when Trump is still in office, and Moore will soon be in the Senate?  No, but it's not as though Franken is innocent, so the fact that others are going to skate by doesn't work as an excuse for him.

Franken has denied the latest allegation. That allegation is what prompted all those Dem Senators to call for his resignation. He doesn't recall the "groping".

The woman in my life has called Franken's Office and told him to not resign. She has also called Gillibrand to complain about her position. 


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cramer

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/360726-stone-appeared-to-know-franken-allegation-was-coming

I was watching Franken's resignation and I had to stop watching because I was so heartbroken. 



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LOST

It is reported that the Governor will appoint the Lt. Governor, a woman, to fill the position until a Special Election next year.

I was hoping he would appoint Keith Ellison to counter Roy Moore who believes Muslims should not be allowed into Congress.


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conandrob240

you have no idea what "my position" is. I'm from the mentally that there's not really "a position" to take on sexual assault. It's sort of black and white.

I am all for office romance and met my spouse at work many moons ago. We flirted some, we had drinks alone and as part of the work group and it evolved from there. However, during that flirtation at no time did my husband give me a dildo as an office Christmas gift or grab my boobs in a work photograph. And I am 100% sure if I had declined his initial request to go out to dinner or for a drink, he would have said ok and moved on, not dropped his pants in my office or harassed me in any way. 

One is normal, one is criminal. None of these alleged incidents being described for any of these men is normal behavior.


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DaveSchmidt


conandrob240 said:

you have no idea what "my position" is.

Fair enough. (For the record, I meant your position against that first link, not on sexual harassment in general.) I posted both articles for discussing (and reading) as people wished.


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drummerboy

Your position at the very least appears to involve equating Franken with Lauer and Weinstein.

That says a lot, if that's what you meant.

conandrob240 said:

you have no idea what "my position" is. I'm from the mentally that there's not really "a position" to take on sexual assault. It's sort of black and white.

I am all for office romance and met my spouse at work many moons ago. We flirted some, we had drinks alone and as part of the work group and it evolved from there. However, during that flirtation at no time did my husband give me a dildo as an office Christmas gift or grab my boobs in a work photograph. And I am 100% sure if I had declined his initial request to go out to dinner or for a drink, he would have said ok and moved on, not dropped his pants in my office or harassed me in any way. 

One is normal, one is criminal. None of these alleged incidents being described for any of these men is normal behavior.



Like  
Mike


LOST said:

It is reported that the Governor will appoint the Lt. Governor, a woman, to fill the position until a Special Election next year.

I was hoping he would appoint Keith Ellison to counter Roy Moore who believes Muslims should not be allowed into Congress.

Maybe Franken will run in the special election for his own seat.  That would be validation by his own voters.  Also by then we will know more about how the Moore situation plays out. 


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conandrob240

I have no idea of whether what Franken is accused of is equal to, less than or greater than what Lauer did or Weinstein did. I have no position on that dear drummerboy because I wasn't the victim and I am not privy to all the details of each case. 

I do find it hypocritical that Franken is getting a poor guy pass here. Simply because he's a Democrat. My blood is pure Democrat through and through and I wish to god that no Dems were in the fire of this but Franken is and he is guilty of some level of crime against women. It's not okay. He doesn't get a pass because he's been a good senator or a great liberal spokesman or even because he's a great defender of our party. He just doesn't.

Does it make me sick that others who have done the same or worse to women didn't pay with their jobs? Of course. But it doesn't make me sad or mad that Franken was punished for HIS alleged crimes.  Do I think it should have been up to the voters? Maybe. 

I'd like to see a blanket rule- you assault or harass women in what appears to be a pattern of abuse ( and not one isolated incident), you lose yur job. Period. Whether that be movie producer,  movie star, journalist, teacher or politician.  But we aren't there yet.  That doesn't mean Franken should have kept his job just because he's among the first politician to take the fall. Hopefully it'll start a movement across both parties and others who did this or worse will fall as well.

drummerboy said:

Your position at the very least appears to involve equating Franken with Lauer and Weinstein.

That says a lot, if that's what you meant.

conandrob240 said:

you have no idea what "my position" is. I'm from the mentally that there's not really "a position" to take on sexual assault. It's sort of black and white.

I am all for office romance and met my spouse at work many moons ago. We flirted some, we had drinks alone and as part of the work group and it evolved from there. However, during that flirtation at no time did my husband give me a dildo as an office Christmas gift or grab my boobs in a work photograph. And I am 100% sure if I had declined his initial request to go out to dinner or for a drink, he would have said ok and moved on, not dropped his pants in my office or harassed me in any way. 

One is normal, one is criminal. None of these alleged incidents being described for any of these men is normal behavior.



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Woot

This thread didn't date well. And his "apology" was weak 


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drummerboy

That's cause it wasn't an apology.

Woot said:

This thread didn't date well. And his "apology" was weak 



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brealer

I respect that some voters would find the allegations against Franken disqualifying. Even if every one of them were true (he squeezed my waist twice when we posed for a photo/his hand lingered on my breast when we posed for a photo/he tried to kiss me when he was a comedian/he copped a feel when I was sleeping for a demeaning staged photo when he was a comedian), I would not. Some much lower level of discipline than excommunication by a Reverend Dimmesdale claque is indicated.


But voters In MN who may feel the way I do, have been completely disenfranchised by these zero tolerance, no due process  Dimmesdales.


It's not a good look for the DFL. I think this thing could go sideways for them.



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boomie

Franken is a predator?  I don't believe that.  If I see information to the contrary I will  change my opinion.  On this one, I just don't believe he's that guy.  I believe he has probably crossed a line but that line was nowhere near the lines we are talking about with the President, Moore, Weinstein etc.   All that said, I am ultimately glad he resigned, though I think it would have been absolutely right for him not to, and to let the people decide whether he was fit to stay.   It killed me to watch his resignation speech.   He is being used as an example and sadly so many others who did worse are staying in full power.


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boomie

BTW he absolutely has denied wrongdoing.   


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Philip

So many people complained over the last year that Democrats don't stand for anything. Now a lot of the same folks are complaining that Democrats are being too pure.


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Mike


drummerboy said:

That's cause it wasn't an apology.

Woot said:

This thread didn't date well. And his "apology" was weak 

It seems to me that he apologized for the offenses he admits to having committed. It’s possible that he didn’t do the rest of what he is accused. 


Like  
terp


ml1 said:

And no one is going to lose their job over a simple improper remark.  It's going to have to be something that rose to the level of creating a hostile environment.

I'm not so sure. Who gets to define what hostile is?


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